Davos Dispatch: Sovereign Debt, Gold, & the Case for Bitcoin

What [music] you're telling me is that music is about to stop and we're going to be left holding the biggest [music] bag of odorous extrem ever assembled in the history of data. 1974, [music] 1987, '92, 97, 2000, whatever we want to call this. It's all just the same thing over and over. We can't help ourselves. [music] >> I say when we sell. Hey, Muhammad. I say when we sell. >> We are back. >> Oh god. >> We are back. [laughter] >> We are back in the 80s. Actually, we're back in the 80s. >> Don't say that. >> We had we had high hopes last week, but >> once again, we've been let down by the Bitcoin price. >> And this week, we don't have any special guests. The special guest is your three favorite hosts. I'm joined by Brian and Michael. Gentlemen, good to see you. What's going on? How's the week been? >> It's going good. We've we've heard the feedback. We know people enjoy the the the threesomes once in a while. So, we're going to, you know, try to do that more frequently. And, uh, Jackson, you know, he's a little more energetic to start the pod because we were talking about, you know, the need for new listeners coming in. We don't want to start soft. We don't want to start with, oh, well, the price is in 80ks. Look, we know where we're going. We need to make sure everyone knows where we're going so they know how to safely pack their bags. Um, so we're just gonna we're gonna level up. We're just gonna level up across the board. Maybe we'll get Larry Frink on the pod. Maybe we'll give away a bit. >> We're not No, we're not getting on the pod. >> We're getting Larry. >> No, no, no. >> But we can give away a Bitcoin. Y'all are good with that one. >> So, >> look, Michael, I I just want the listeners to know that every week, almost every week, they try to give me some sort of pep talk. And I don't know what the point of it is to be honest. You can let me know in the comments. Am I fired up enough for you or am I not? We'll let the listeners decide. But uh >> we just get concerned for Jack. We just get concerned for >> we just get concerned for Jackson. Look, the market is volatile. This business is volatile. >> Pull up the goldart. Get this get this Bitcoin chart out of here. Pull. >> Yeah, let's look at gold. [laughter] Let's just look at the gold. You know, >> that's where we're headed. The gold chart tells us tells us the path. I'm going to be on Roxom's uh deal later and then I'm doing an investor presentation and and one of the things I want to um call out is Bitcoin's the best savings technology. Onramp offers the best savings account because you still have to harness that but then liking it back to effectively geopolitical and all the risk that's going on and then looking at gold and just saying gold um Bitcoin is gold with wings. And the difference between gold and Bitcoin is you have 5,000 10,000 years of history, but you get to pay for that history and its upside in Bitcoin. And so I think like the point being is this is something I was noodling on before this, but what you're saying is like we should be so excited about what's happened with precious metals and hard assets because it's not if, it's just when this eventually, it doesn't have to leak from gold either. I don't know why people say that. It literally just is the same thesis played out on a different scale with different asymmetric understanding and it will eventually be understood. And when that happens, uh, as our friend EV K, uh, likes to say, make sure to wear your diapers. It's very, um, you know, I've seen a lot of short-term thinking, uh, over the past weeks and months related to what you're just describing where people are saying, oh, you know, Bitcoin is underperforming gold. it's uh you know down 50% against gold over the past 12 months. Um but that is really just like a symptom of of looking at a short time frame. Like if you zoom out any farther than that then bitcoins outperformed gold. Um and you know what happens after a period of short-term underperformance is then people try to ascribe reasons for the underperformance. So you have the Nick Carters of the world saying, "Oh, the the quote unquote mysterious underperformance is due to quantum breaking Bitcoin." like that is that is his thesis and that is his thinking, but it's just it's rooted in a short-term uh view of 12 months of underperformance when if you just zoom out any farther than that, like that's not what's going on. Can I give a real spicy uh take is um there was the way it was going to come from was a you get to find out really who what people are about what they care about in what you just described because it goes back to the digital asset treasury deal is uh it's like if you didn't really care about the underlying and understand its properties well why would you go and propagate and promote this in the same way that do you care about Bitcoin winning or do you care about sound money proliferating and rebuilding a world and so then the the next thought would be, well, gold can't do this because it's already been proven uh that it hasn't. And I would make the case if Bitcoin doesn't didn't exist. Theoretically, you could actually um run back a gold standard. And the reason why, and this is what safe attempted to do, uh still haven't read it read maybe the first couple pages of the gold standard is um you would create different levels of transportation to net settle the gold. But more importantly is now with stable coins, you would be able to net settle payments and you could go back to like a free banking style, especially with the gold price rising because now you have a different um safe haven sovereign asset. So anyway, the point being is like what do people want? Because gold doing what it's doing, you can make the case is actually more valuable long uh in the short term than Bitcoin's price going up um you know by like 10% or whatever because just in the past day it's gone up like $2 trillion in market cap. Gold's $33 trillion. It's an insane proposition for I think in November it was only $22 trillion. So it's gone up like 20%. Um or 25%. So anyway, you I I don't know if I'm articulating the best way, but it's just like what do people actually care about and what are they looking for? And if they're looking for like like these short-term games so they can get more dollars or trade as another asset, well, it's a different lens than looking at it as repricing everything else. Yeah, it's it's gold running is validating the thesis that the money is broken, right? And gold as a asset with an extremely long track record relative to Bitcoin, it's logical that it would move first. And it's also coming from sovereigns and central banks who uh are much more comfortable and familiar with gold. So, and it's also just larger. So, it can um it can accommodate those types of uh massive flows easier than than Bitcoin can. And so, it makes total sense. And if you do have a long-term fundamental thesis on Bitcoin, like you understand that that is accretive to the thesis that more people, whether it's central banks or individuals, are understanding that the fiat debasement train uh is not is not uh stopping anytime soon and and you need to protect yourself with with scarce assets, sound money. And um the reality on the ground is that most the vast vast majority of humans on Earth have no understanding of what Bitcoin is. Um they conflate it with crypto. They think it's a trade. They think it's uh levered NASDAQ exposure. Um most people don't really think of it as uh as you described, gold with wings. Um most people are not there yet. So they see the a short-term underperformance and they think, "Oh, the the it's broken. It's it's not doing what it's supposed to do." Real quick, Jackson, before we pumping this is um I think it's also just really quickly worth calling out. This is why you have to be careful who you follow and listen to. Um because ultimately if you go back 12 months ago, everyone that was an influencer or following the space was calling for Bitcoin to surpass gold at X market cap and dollar price. And this notion that Brian referenced like there is uh Bitcoin is a risk asset for the the majority of the world, all of the world effectively. And it is a riskoff asset. Uh gold is a riskoff asset. Like that doesn't happen overnight. And for anybody to assume that was ever going to happen and as people propagate that makes zero sense. And if you take it a step further, anybody can hold any amount of gold in their house, it doesn't mean they should because they have to live their life. They have to put their kids through college and they don't want people breaking in to go rob them, kill them, kidnap them. But for some reason, everyone else uh in this space says the other side that it will bypass it and you can just, you know, sing kumbaya, hold the device, and you'll be okay. And it's just really crazy. So anyway, it's just more calling that out because nobody in the Bitcoin space would have been like, oh, gold's going to do this. It's like, of course, it's going to do this because not only are we increasing the amount of dollars, but as people and sovereigns need to go into a sound asset, they're going to go into the most liquid asset available to them, which is gold. It's not Bitcoin. Over time, that will be the case. Um, but there's an order of operations to this. By the way, that's the opportunity. like that is that is the essence of why you should be excited about buying Bitcoin today is because most people don't understand what you just said. Um but if you just think about the concrete monetary properties of the asset, it will follow it will follow suit uh as more people understand what's happening here. And sorry Jackson, I know you're ready to roll. Jackson wants to talk about the lizards in Davos and we got to go and because Jackson loves loves these topics here. [snorts] I mean, look, all the influencers all have to be more polished, but they're all wrong and they don't know what they're talking about. And we're going to take a look at uh we're going to take a look at one of these classic tweets. All caps. Coinbase CEO absolutely destroyed French central bank governor who said he doesn't trust Bitcoin. This is a mustwatch. So, let's see. >> Bitcoin doesn't have a money printer. The the supply is fixed and people will go to it in times of uncertainty, kind of like they did with gold. Sorry to say that I trust more independent central banks with a democratic mandate than private issuers of Bitcoin which have a very useful role. But >> Bitcoin is the decentralized protocol. There's actually no issuer of it. So that's that's in the sense that central banks have independence. Bitcoin is even more independent. There's no country or company or individual who controls it in the world. And so anyway, I I think it's a healthy competition because um [laughter] uh because if people can decide which one they trust more and I think it's actually the greatest accountability mech Bitcoin does >> I mean I just love the fact that they all laughed at Brian Armstrong when he said that it's a compet it's a healthy competition. They're like what is this guy talking about? Um but yeah I mean gentlemen what do you guys think of this clip? I have my own thoughts but uh we can let's let's hand it over to Michael. He's very eager to say something. We'll see [laughter] we'll see if it's insightful or not. Uh, I think there's a meta. It's like a it's a just like this nice humiliation ritual. Uh, because I think, you know, Brian probably believes what he believes and whoever the Claus Schwab representative of of the year. Uh, you know, with his accent and and his taste. >> Clash is out. Claus is out, by the way. It's it's Larry Frink is the head of the World Economic Forum. I didn't actually I didn't know that he's the head of it. That's that's hilarious. [laughter] Um, yeah, I think that it's going to be, this is going to be a theme, um, because we're going to talk a little bit about there was some stuff in the Netherlands and the craziness and wealth taxes in California that I think like when you get to the midlevel, senior level of these organizations and these sovereigns, they believe these things like you need a bank, you need a central bank, but like the people there's people way smarter and greater positions that understand that's not the case and we like have an unsustainable debt situation and people will opt for other currencies. Like they know this, but when you go up and and have to p pander to the people um that attend these things, you have to have this kind of discourse and you need Brian to be on his side saying the things that the Bitcoiners want to hear and what I think he believes. I think he they're both like puppets effectively and then on the other side. But, uh, yeah, of course, like it makes sense and and it is a healthy competition because, you know, the the old joke, uh, Parker's really coined is like if you ask a 5-year-old, you know, would you rather have um a a unit or whatever that only has x amount, a finite supply, would you rather have one that's infinite? Nobody would pick uh the infinite except for a central banker. So, like this is just a thesis of Bitcoin playing out. Um, so yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, Armstrong gets a lot of [ __ ] and part of it's probably warranted. I mean, he runs a crypto casino, but every now and again, he does have these u these sound bites that are pretty effective. He he to your point, like he definitely understands Bitcoin. Um, and he's a smart guy, and to your point, like in that scenario, in that environment, he kind of needs to to speak in a certain way. But I think he did a great job there. And it's also just fascinating that, you know, he's describing it as a healthy competition. You would think that the central bankers um would know at least they're in some sort of competition and and at least understand that there's no issuer issuer of Bitcoin. Like that you can see Brian's face when he's saying like, you know, he's talking about the the private issuers of Bitcoin. Like Brian gets like excited like he's ready for the dunk to be like there's no there's no [ __ ] issuer, dude. Um I I would I would I'd be curious, Jackson, your thoughts on this. I would push back on like directionally right, but I don't think I I truly believe Brian offering doesn't understand Bitcoin because if he understood Bitcoin, you know, outside of 21 million and yes, it's better than a dollar. Um he wouldn't build what he's building today because he'd been building something completely different. He would have been stacking Bitcoin for a long time versus the past two years. But then the other side of that is um I don't I genuinely believe they don't think that they have competition because it's not about the money per se. It's about the convenience and intertanglement when it comes to how do you go to the doctor in the future if you don't have an application that gives you an ID that's tied to the you know local currency that's how you pay and you're pegged into it like we've seen this already play out that it's not even about like a better form of money for a lot of people it's about what is the most convenient way for them to interact in in that world I'm not saying it's right I'm not saying it's going to win long term but in their world they look at like the walls the pen off con they've created and the things that they will the levers that they have to get people to take the bad form of money and they don't actually believe there's a competition because for the vast majority of people without agency they rather just go to the thing that like they were told to go to. So I don't think they really believe there's there's a competition like >> I mean I think their reaction says it all. They they laugh at him when they say I mean they they obviously don't think there's any competition and I think that is unfortunately for us still a representation of most people. Um, remember Cam on a call earlier this week was talking about like a buddy he caught up with and pe most people they just like their eyes glaze over when you talk about Bitcoin. So the fact that Brian Armstrong is talking in Davos about Bitcoin being a competition to fiat currencies and they're all laughing at him is actually what most people think of us who own Bitcoin and build Bitcoin businesses. And so that if anything is a testament to how early it is because like any new technology, you're going to be discredited by people. You're going to be slandered by people. But if you're right, then you just stay the course and ultimately time will prove that you're right. And so I mean, I just think that look, these are economists. Um, they grew up in this system and they think that fiat currency is the best currency option available and it solves the problems. I mean, I genuinely think that most people believe that. Of course, there's going to be some percentage of people who are truly malicious actors, but I think most people just think that they're doing the right thing. this is what's best for people. Inflation needs to exist because it's good for you and it stimulates the economy. And I just think that we're a laughing stock still. So, you know, it's going to be that way for a little bit longer, unfortunately. >> It's worth calling out though, you know, I think gold surpassed M1 at least or like base money um from most central bank reserves. And so there is a reality that like we're not like direct I mean even uh objectively wrong in the sense that sound money is things that sovereigns and people want gold and bitcoin are very close to each other. So it's like not an insane proposition but to your point it's still laughable by most. I do think um the thing that really opened Pandora's box in my mind to just the realization that the institutions and powers that be do not hold any real credibility is after co right because there's a lot of things and ramifications that were probably put in place for various reasons but the one thing that you can ever take back is once people had a bunch of time on their hands they've got to realize that um the institutions that have existed their whole lives actually have no real idea of what they're doing uh in various degrees of this I don't think anybody's come out of 21 and in 2020 21 to believe that they're just infallible and absolutely perfect. And so to your point, when you hear economist today, it's like what do you mean? Like it's that it's that jokeable. Like you would uh and I'd rather like have a kid be a painter or an artist than an economist. Like because at least he's going to do something of value. Somebody may enjoy that. But if you're like sitting behind closed doors pretending with, you know, a bean counting how you can like manipulate a sovereign, it just we know it doesn't work. Um, so >> all right, it's 2026 and we have a new year ahead of us. It means it's a great time. It is an opportunity to take inventory. Think about your Bitcoin custody, your inheritance plan, your broader ownership structure, and your goals. If you're looking for more peace of mind this year, get in touch with us here at On-Ramp. We're working with individuals all over the world. people who've been in Bitcoin for a decade, people who got in for the first time last year. We're working with individuals who use self- custody and have done so for a number of years or even over a decade. And likewise, we're working with people who never felt comfortable with self- custody and who have Bitcoin on an exchange. Either way, get in touch with us here at On-Ramp. We have a private client type approach to our relationships. You have a dedicated account manager, always human support, multi-institution custody with inheritance included, an IRA account included as well at no additional cost. Access to Bitcoin back loans, insurance is included, trading capabilities as well, and for a limited time, if you use the code TLT, you'll get 50% off your first month with On-Ramp. Now, I will say it may be worth having a conversation. So, when you speak with me or speak with someone and book that consultation on our homepage, you can just mention you heard of us through the last trade. Mention TLT and we'll still take care of that if you sign up. So, hope you enjoy the rest of the episode. Thanks for being here. >> Yeah, I I I totally agree with that. And but also, Michael, the the sovereigns that are accumulating gold are also at odds with the Davos crowd, right? So, the Davos crowd still has their perception that uh the euro, the dollar, like these are the dominant monetary rails. And then the anti-davos crowd, China, Russia, etc., they're the ones that are accumulating gold. I mean, even Eastern European countries as well that aren't like in the, you know, the the EU. Um, these are countries that are actually getting ahead and the and the Emirates, you know, GCC as well. Yeah, 100%. Maybe that ties into the um the uh Ken Griffin clip because what reminds me of before this run, remember when u we had Josh Far, which we should probably get back on, that runs the Wyoming um Scottsdale Mint and he was the the way he got on our radar, he was on Twitter like on planes or had video footage of all the planes that were bringing gold back to the United States before this rip happened. And so to the point of like this rip was allowed to happen in gold because everyone already had figured out their positions and brought it back home. And I think that's the big lens that Citadel and these other guys are looking at. It's like the debt is unsustainable. Counterparty risk is going to matter as uh as much if not most today. And um anyway, when you pull that clip up, I think it's it's a good uh indication of that. >> I did not know I did not know that uh Larry is the head of head of this. First of all, it's a it's a pleasure to be on the gloom and doom panel. >> Yeah, >> we're not we're not the 1920s were an extraordinary period. As I said at the beginning, it's not pre-ordained, but it has the end note of the 1920s, which was of course the Great Depression, Andrew. So, let's let's take a step back and talk about where we are right here, right now. the the area of recklessness is the is the spending of governments around the world >> who are all with with little exception all spending well beyond their means. That's the recklessness of this moment in history. This is not a parallel to the 1920s in terms of the recklessness of the of the private capital markets. It's a story of the recklessness of government spending within the private sector. There's a huge question as to where AI will take us. And I I was carefully taking notes and listening to what Larry has to say or to what has to say because this is one of the big issues of our moment. Will AI create the productivity acceleration that is honestly this hoped for in Washington and in the halls of government around the world as a way to overcome the profit spending that we're currently engaged in. Like the world the world needs a savior and the hope is that AI is the savior. >> So the Hail Mary that's that was what I was trying to get to. Everyone's admitted that the debt is unsustainable and the Hail Mary is AI which is no Hail Mary because we all understand from first principles if you get rid of uh anybody's you know ability to need to work well that causes you can reduce >> I mean these people are just repulsive [laughter] is like that's my take. They're just like disgusting human beings. Um and I I would love to be more vulgar but I'll I'll I'll curtail myself. The point being is like all of a sudden these people are trying to act philanthropic and say, "Oh, this is this is a bad situation. This is so bad for all of us and we need to make sure we fix it." Listen, since 2008, I mean, you could obviously make the case much longer than that, but since 2008, Wall Street has just been absolutely with the federal government and the central banks, of course, have just been totally pillaging the rest of the world. I mean there's no other way to put it to put it between the monetary policy the fiscal policy of the past almost 20 years have just totally destroyed any sort of American dream that exists. Um they have done so without any sort of uh you know any remorse at all. And so all of the sudden now there's this concern of the debt. Well central banks have been monetizing government balance sheets for decades now and it was never a problem. Oh, we didn't have a problem with zero interest rate policy. We didn't have a problem with inflating all the assets in the world possible. But now all of a sudden, now that the the debt is on everyone's minds, we have to pretend like this is a problem that first of all, it doesn't really impact them all that much. Uh it impacts everyone else. But this is it's just I think incredibly frustrating, especially I I just want to go on record and say that like Larry Frink as an example. Um, everyone embraced him all all of a sudden just because he has Bitcoin products, which is fine. Like that's that's the natural uh path that all these firms will go down and they have to embrace Bitcoin. But these people are not your friends and they don't have your best interest in mind. It's that simple. >> Brian was doing the editing early on. Uh, so he's probably one of the the few that knows that these receipts are correct and unless somebody was listening. I remember specifically this was 23 summer when this business launched and how everyone was on you know the Larry Fing B bandwagon. It was like, guys, this is just where the ASG was trying to get like put in the corner in the closet. And you look at what they represent and the notion of tokenizing the world and and disintermediating people from ownership and you're like, this only is one direction. Like this is just a trade. And to your point, Jackson, it actually is pretty disgusting because it's like the equivalent of a firefighter, you know, uh saying that the fire is going to uh burn down the city and then they're lighting it and they need to sell you like the water to do it is because like all these companies made all their money from this monetary policy and the amount of debt and destruction of capital, but people don't understand that. So when they listen to them, it sounds so like prophetic and altruistic and we're going to fix this and AI is going to do it and it's like they're just setting up the the the the pain point or the problem to like offer some solution that's not going to benefit anybody. >> Yeah. And to just go a little deeper on like the hailmary aspect of AI productivity, it it's wrong in multiple ways. The first way it's wrong is like, okay, if there is a quote unquote productivity miracle, lots of jobs get displaced, people can't uh earn living wages, they need to then basically print money to allow people to live. Um, so some form of UBI occurs. Um, so this this deflationary boom is going to be met with insane monetary and fiscal policy as a result. And then on the other side, if it doesn't come to fruition, then like the stock market's going to implode because like 50 to 70% of the um sort of growth or strength of the S&P and NASDAQ over the past year is is all interrelated um with AI companies or or companies servicing AI companies. Um and we've talked about sort of the um circular nature of a lot of that spend, a lot of those forecasts. Um, and you know, OpenAI is like, you know, I think they they internally announced a code red in December. Um, and I forget I saw something on on Twitter yesterday that was like they have maybe a year or two of like runway before they're just like totally out of money. So they they're going to need to do another raise um unless they can basically find AGI in the next 6 months. Yeah. The Hail Mary doesn't exist. Like there is no Hail Mary. Like it's a false construct of you can grow your way out of the debt when there's a certain amount of debt. Meaning like the easiest I always like to go back to the micro example is like if I have a bunch of debt on credit cards and then my job's paying $50,000 and you know the debt ratio is way off and the interest in juice is going but then I go get a um a raise and get to 100,000 well then I can grow myself out of that. But once you're at a certain level and then you're ultimately like the in the same analogy, [clears throat] the the savior is the thing that kills my job. So I still have the debt, but I don't have the actual uh job to pay off any of it. And why what I think is the most important here because we talk with a lot of folks like we we we joke in the beginning but we truly do have very big plans and ambitions to offer services globally to different segments of the market to help protect against this because it really is an important uh function for people to everyone to have exposure to BTC in the best form so you can use it if you need it. And it comes up very often about like this pres predisposition or presupposition of that's the right word of like the ETFs will own all the Bitcoin because that's just how everyone's going to do it. It's like that makes zero sense in the same way that um nobody will spend the Bitcoin in a hyperinflationary event where Bitcoin's running and nobody wants to spend it, right? We obviously know that's not true because you know people need to spend their Bitcoin need to eat. But the point being is in this world you're describing where they have to print more dollars. They have to increasingly print more dollars. People start to recognize the dollars value is worth less and less. People will demand Bitcoin for goods and services. And it doesn't even have to be some like ideological thing. It could be because your bank account is being seized. It can be because the um AI and other applications are embedding it. Point being is you can't do any of that if you own a paper wrapper. and that's just going to become more and more understood by the market. Um, and so we're just still so early, but that's just something to think about because there's all these examples we're talking about is like why you don't want Larry Frink wrapping uh, you know, putting a paper wrap around your Bitcoin. And I don't think it's like rocket science to that where that eventually gets understood by the market because you're just going to naturally need to use this underlying asset. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I would add as well that nobody knows what they're talking about, especially at Davos, right? And so I I feel like it's still underappreciated just how how many different converging forces there are from a macro scale. Like we have no idea what the next 10 or 20 years will look like based on the disruption from technology. I mean, we're all using it every day now and we're using it more and more and it's incredible what you can accomplish with these different tools. And so the workforce is going to look totally different than it does today, probably in five years and then in 10, right? And then how do you pair that disruption with labor markets with asset prices? And how do you think about a monetary reordering where you're seeing gold add like 20 trillion to its market cap in probably 12 to 18 months and then where does Bitcoin fit into that? So like I don't really think anyone knows what they're talking about, you know, let alone um myself. But even just like people in this space and then people in Wall Street Davos, everyone's trying to make their best guess. Everyone's trying to portray whatever's uh in their best interest, of course. But yeah, man, it's it's a crazy time out there. I I ultimately think that we'll get get out on the other side of this, but I don't know what the next decade's going to look like. >> Yeah, I think one of the biggest and this is something we stumbled on during these conversations, lies we were told, is there such thing as a risk-free rate? Because when you look at like how you evaluate public private companies, you're looking at this like risk-free rate, um, time value money, DCF, you're like trying to establish based on something, but there is no risk-free rate. Like there is no there's no such thing as risk-free, right? And so the only thing you can really do is go back to first principles and reason. Well, you want to knock get knocked out of the game if something bad happens, i.e. a bank says your money's not yours, right? You just start to go through these things. things. And to your point, Jackson, it's like, well, there's a lot of uncertainty and the purpose of money was to provide certainty in an uncertain world. And but the money doesn't do that anymore. Um, and so anyway, like to your point, we don't necessarily know the future, but you do know that you want to protect yourself. Um, and so maybe just pulling it up because this is kind of on this theme uh before going to the gold stuff is I just saw this. I don't know how how real it is. I mean, I saw some other folks talking about it, but it's effectively Netherlands. Um, this is Bitcoin use putting out Netherlands to tax unrealized Bitcoin gains. What really caught my eye here was because MDK had done a quote tweet that was it's really about the farmland because this isn't really just Bitcoin. This is basically for any asset on an annualized basis, you're going to look at the gains and have it taxed. I think Canada is something quas like this already when I've talked to prospective clients around if they're ever going to sell any Bitcoin, they have to basically have those taxes like within 30 days. So, you basically have to plan for any sales before. Um, and then this ties into a lot of the discussion. I would highly encourage if anybody didn't listen to Allin last week because there's a really um important segment around the severity of what's happening in California because this this feels like it's not a matter of if, it's when, whether it's this next bill or the next couple years that it's it's effectively this um it's not inequality. It's like it's not even inongruent. It's traditionally like income taxes or property taxes. They are congruent and across the board independent of somebody's socioeconomic background, wealth, it's just one flat tax. You sign up for it or you don't. You know, property taxes in Texas, you got to deal with income taxes in California and New York City. You got to deal with, you know, it's there, but you make the decision and you can be there. This is just a retroactive choice to pick certain segments of the market to start with and just t tax them for whatever they want. And the realization is that's why a lot of people have left. And so I think we're going to start to see this across the world. The problem is that again like the 2D view is like oh these people are incompetent. I I don't think it's incompetence. I think this is structural decline because when people leave and these assets and companies end up uh in solvent or distressed who gets to go in there and basically own Netherlands and you know micro trips or whatever they produce and who gets to own all the pristine value that sits in California like I there's there's a lot happening here. Um and then I think this basically ties into the other part which is gold because when you have wealth being destroyed uh and you are trying to you know traditionally invest in you know 6040 depending on what size um in whatever jurisdiction you're buying equities or you're buying um whatever your sovereign bonds are. this gets really hard to plan around something like that because you don't know the geopolitical nature of your local uh currency and your local sovereign um equity market. Well, that's where gold starts to play in. And I think that's been that structural bid for the past 24 months is that like we've talked about this before, gold and Bitcoin are money. Everything else is credit. Plan accordingly, >> dude. And no one owns any gold either, as I'm sure you know. >> It's just nobody even holds cash. I mean, that's the crazy thing is like you go to most people and you ask them, "Oh, do you have any cash at home or do you have any gold?" No, no one does. And so, to your point, it's everyone I mean, actually, you know, very few people are even paying attention to this right now. And so, most people are still allocated as if nothing's changed, right? You could go back 10 years ago and probably their portfolios look exactly the same. Actually, personally, I had some old 401ks that I just like didn't look at for for years and finally got like that situated and I just had like money sitting in just garbage allocations from a long time ago and would have been way better if I didn't procrastinate that decision. But point being is like most people just have their wealth allocated, set it and forget it. either they do it themselves or they do it with their adviser and there's no sort of um there's no sort of first principles thinking or I would even say that there's just no sort of like reconsideration of well does this still make sense because people are busy they have other things most people aren't like you know you shouldn't have to of course in the first place manage your money you should just be able to save but that doesn't exist so you have to manage your money and so most people are just doing what they thought is prudent for the past you know whatever worked in the past 50 years but that isn't working anymore more and probably like 1% of the population actually is starting to pay attention to what might work in the next 50 years. >> Yeah. The other [clears throat] the other thing that you made me think of is like most people don't own gold. It's not in their 6040. But the other component is like most people probably don't understand like why gold is running either. like there I think there's a big disconnect there in terms of I think um you know in addition to gold you have silver running you have other precious metals uh rare earths running as well companies that mine those running as well so I think there's a natural conflation of the story around um you know bringing a lot of manufacturing back on shore in the US we need more rare earths we can't be dependent on China's supply chain so there's these other narratives that you could try to explain away gold's move without talking about the money being broken So, I think I do think that's a component as well for like the average person who's watching this happen. Um, maybe they're paying attention to the gold price, but I don't think they're necessarily um tying it to the the sort of fundamental flaws of the monetary system as as we're discussing. And what you just described is also another piece in the puzzle of why we haven't seen a Bitcoin bull run this cycle. Because ultimately, a bull run is when people are buying. I don't think we've ever seen uh when Bitcoin runs where a bunch of people are buying it that don't know what it is. Like a bunch of people buy it because it's just running like that's what you do and then you you get that, you know, that's where the volatility comes from because a certain subset establish that base when they understand what they're holding. Point being is that hasn't happened this cycle like nobody was aping in. There's no matic forces. Um, and my my instincts are that there's just a lot of accumulation happening across the board because to Jackson's point, this was something that I was thinking about like 6 months ago around it's just a fascinating thing where anybody that looks at these markets understands that you're a sucker if you're holding bonds. Um, and they're allocating to gold and Bitcoin, but then on the other side of it, everyone else is holding bonds and thinks you're a sucker if you're holding gold and Bitcoin. And the conclusion I came to was it's this version of like we just have a top- down approach to how we interact as humans with society. Meaning whoever is like the people pulling the strings and you know in a more contextual version of that it's a sovereign it's an institutional um allocator research shop. Well whenever they decide it's gold and bitcoin that's when everyone else is going to go not a moment before then. So what I think is happening right now and this is ties into some of the links when you see Trump and their family accumulating 1.5 billion and stable coins proliferating and there's a tweet uh we have a link to uh Bant talking about us leading I think right now is like the plumbing is being established and there's just this like peg they're trying to keep these assets at because to your point Jackson this is all sovereign bid for gold but once the narrative gets out there and it really takes off which it already has that's when you start to see all the different the normie crowd come in via their ETF broker we see more clients start to come in. Um, but I think we just have some time before that's in place and that's really just structural plumbing before that happens. >> I didn't actually see this. Um, I didn't see a lot of what we uh are covering today. So, I'm reacting for the first time. But, yeah, I mean, >> it's a better pod when you don't prepare. So, I like it because you just come fired up, you know, you're you're just excited that work, you know. So, um, but no, anyways, Trump adds 1.4 4 billion in crypto-related assets to family fortune since inauguration. [snorts] Look, I will I'll die on this hill. It's always just about watching what people do. It's always about their self-interest. So, like, it's really not that complicated. If if I could just uh make a droid of myself and come to the podcast every week, it would be the same thing. Just pay attention to what these people are doing. They have all the power. They have all the influence. They have all the money. if they're positioning themselves and they're adding wealth into the Bitcoin space and they're building companies and they're sitting on boards of companies like Trump's family is and they're hosting a conference at Mara Lago next month, you may you may want to pay attention because even though there's a lot of discourse and there's a lot of FUD right now, at some point to Michael's point that will all just flip it, you know, flip the script overnight seemingly. So the the funny thing though is like a good amount of people will see this and be like, "Oh, Trump's disgusting. I'm never going to buy Bitcoin or crypto. Like it's just all a Ponzi scheme." Like, so for some people, this is continue it continuing to reinforce their bias that I'll never touch this thing because it's a grift. And then for other people, I think if you just remove the politics from it and recognize that all politicians are scum, uh maybe not all, like 99% of them are. I know there's some good pe There's some good people out there. I I'll acknowledge that. Uh, but like most of them are scum. Then you can kind of like remove that bias and at least know that just pay attention to what they're doing. It like goes back to the Pelosi tracker like all right well these people are just like printing money trading options and buying uh positions. Why don't we just copy what they do? And so that was an effective strategy. So now you just take a look at uh some of the different things that are happening here and apply it to your own life and position yourself accordingly. I I agree directionally with everything he just said. I I will say it's to be fair like what percentage of that 1.4 is X Bitcoin >> and what could you actually call like Griff and fraud >> um on like shitcoins cuz I I think that that is a reasonable take and I think >> um you know this you know their wealth and the things that they've been involved with are not necessarily bitcoin specific. What I think is like more relevant or more important, do you guys remember in I think it was April of last year, Bessant did an interview I think with Tucker Carlson where he basically said, you know, they were talking about the gold price running. He was talking about basically like physical demand uh like physical delivery demand increasing and why um you know things were moving to and from vaults. And in in the next sentence he's like Bitcoin is becoming a store of value. Gold is a store of value. It's like the US Treasury Secretary thinks Bitcoin is becoming a store of value. Like you don't think that's you don't think that's relevant like to to what's about to happen here regardless of what the the near-term short-term price action looks like? Like guys in this administration who who wield massive power are viewing Bitcoin as a store of value alongside gold. Like that that's the real signal to me like I I could kind of care less about like what Trump's family is doing necessarily like because a lot of it is crypto stuff. Um but >> well yeah I mean to to to add to those points cuz it's a it's a nice also transition to the um clarity act and I I randomly I got a little FOMO. I saw on Twitter I think it was last night uh Thomas um Pacquiao from Pub Key posted like the the signal in and Pub Key is is deafening. >> Um you know I think what you guys are both hinting at is there's just different data points to show where this is going. And to Jackson's point is, you know, TVD on how much is Bitcoin, how much is like crypto grift. Um, but I think it just came out like the world liberty token is like gonna do something in the UAE and then somewhere else, some other random country uh as our stable coin. Um, and then to your point, Bessant, like this this ties all back to um I mean there's multiple factions, there's multiple things happening because you see this today. We talked about this on final settlement where you have like Trump's uh suing Jamie Diamond and JP Morgan and then you have like um Black Rockck doing their thing. You have the banks right now staunchly like against this is kind of tying into um what we're talking about here is that like there's market forces from the administration that need dollars to or Bitcoin to proliferate. I'm sorry, gold to proliferate and Bitcoin to increase in value. like that's what they've signaled. And so part of that is this whole clarity act issue because it's understood um and there's a link worth pulling up Jackson that uh again we're going to maybe contradict ourselves a little bit because they're saying don't listen to people at Davos but listen to this from Bessent at Davos and he's just highlighting how there's um importance or no this is actually David Sachs referencing there's importance to the clarity act because it effectively means that you just blur the lines between crypto and banking and it's all the same thing which is where this is going and so when you look at it from a structural perspective You need stable coins to proliferate. You need the banking sector to be favorable and open up access. You need Bitcoin to grow for a number of reasons. Uh watch what these people are doing. They're doing it in both sides from a policy perspective and then their personal balance sheets are both showing. What Jackson's point was that like this asset and this plumbing is being you know created increased in real time. It just doesn't reflect it yet in the price. In case you missed it earlier, we are offering a limited time opportunity to sign up. Use code TLT for 50% off your first month with On-Ramp. I just want to reiterate stakes are high and this is an important decision to think through. So, I would fully expect that you would want to have a conversation with someone on our team. Could speak with Cam, myself, Michael. Go to our homepage, book a consultation. You can speak with us for 15 minutes, 30 minutes. No obligation beyond that. Uh you can just ask us questions, learn about the solution, and I just want to make sure that as you as a listener, whether it's for you, your friends or family, I just want to make sure you have peace of mind and you feel good about this year ahead of us as it relates to Bitcoin ownership, custody, and inheritance. So again, limited time offer, 50% off your first month. Use code TLT. you can just mention that during the consultation or if you do end up just going direct to sign up, mention that code uh on the website and you'll be all set. So, thanks for being here and hope you enjoy the rest of the episode. What was the link you wanted me to pull up, Michael? We won't have to pull it up, but it's online uh where David Saxs is in Davos with like CNBC effectively saying like he feels very strongly that the the uh Clarity Act or the bill will go through which I think is like non-conensus because most people in the industry believe there's too it's too far apart. But I think the real take is that they will shoehorn it in because they need it to be uh done however they get it done and which that is insanely bullish for all things related to this industry because again most people don't want to catch a falling knife and if there's clarity from banks and other institutions that just is going to increase adoption whether it's like turning on assets or just actually telling their clients. Last thing is the quantum [ __ ] the quantum stuff that came out of nowhere like late last year ties into all the things we're talking about here and like pegging the price and keeping it kind of subdued until things are in place because I don't think that's what's hindering people. Uh, even though they like will go out I think I saw Nick Carter have a like find some random obscure research from some random obscure investment. One guy one guy who probably read like I I just want to say this that guy probably read Nick's articles and then Nick is just retweeting it as if like that thought is is uh pervasive. But it's like no he probably just read what you wrote and believed it to be true. >> So yeah, what Brian and Michael are referring to is this right here. >> Some guy from Jeff Yeah, Christopher Wood, global head of equity strategy at investment bank Jeffre, removed Bitcoin entirely from his greed and fear model portfolio. I don't know what that would entail, the greed and fear fear model portfolio, but reallocating the full 10% position of Bitcoin into physical gold and gold mining equities. That's interesting. Physical gold. Um, and so this tweet says, "Wondering why Bitcoin is performing uh underperforming gold so badly? It's because of this. financial adviserss read this kind of research and keep client allocations low or zero because quantum computing is an existential threat. It's going to be a yoke around Bitcoin's neck until this gets fixed. I mean, I guess in this context, I could sort of understand it if like you're someone who doesn't know much about Bitcoin and you're considering weighing a small allocation to either Bitcoin or precious metals as part of a portfolio and you're constantly hearing or at least seeing peers on the street talk about this risk to Bitcoin, then you may be more inclined to allocate to precious metals, especially after the performance that gold has had over the past couple years. I mean, people like to pretend that they're sophisticated, but I've experienced this firsthand. Most people chase performance. And so, when you see an asset just like rip non-stop for years on end, and you're on the sidelines, it's very hard to not want to allocate to that asset. And so, I think it's just a it's a combination of Bitcoin's underperformance relative to gold and the fact that a lot of these have been bucketed in the same way in terms of physical gold and digital gold. I think it's natural or at least easy to put Bitcoin to the side and at least focus on gold for now. One other thing, um, we can go for the last 10 here or or if you guys want to go somewhere else, I I think, um, just to call out this past week, um, past week or so, Goldman, State Street, New York Stock Exchange, London Stock Exchange, um, all really just leaning in deep into the digital asset stuff, whether it's stable coin, stable coins, tokenized assets, wallets, and, um, I just think people are sleeping on how stable coins are going like AI like that narrative is going to come from a utilization and uh efficiency gain. Like I don't think we fully appreciate how fragmented money markets have been and how they're going to open up so much. And and the ultimate reason why I'm bringing that up is because I truly can't think of a more bullish setup for Bitcoin than st stable coins proliferating. Like that was when I came back on and Jackson holds me to uh thinking, you know, Bitcoin I still believe Bitcoin would go to 500k or a million dollars at some point in our lives. It was 7. It was >> 750. 750. Yeah, it was that was a nice uh number >> and it was uh Yeah, it was I think it was last year actually. But [laughter] >> but the the realization of it is and you could probably get some real good uh empirical data of looking at Tether's growth and the proliferation of the US dollar price of BTC. And that is just like a small microcosm of a global economy and dollar rails moving. and you start to look at every bank and every fintech and every uh interchange company and Visa net settling all the things related and you're opening up the plumbing for local currencies to get into stable coins and they're programmatic so you can effectively move them into Bitcoin. They open the aperture for people to understand digital assets. Um and then over time naturally they will realize you know the things we know about the uh properties of Bitcoin and why they make it better. But um I just think that that is such a huge catalyst that gets misunderstood or appreciated that stable coins, they're just going to exist for a long time. And and what I've also I don't know if I've shared with you guys, but like I think this is also a big part of Tether's uh long-term plans around buying gold and BTC is because the recognition is that, you know, the credibility of a stable coin is effectively what it's being backed by. And over time, if treasuries and sovereign credibility erodess, you're going to need to compete as like uh true kind of free banking, what is the collateral of the stable coin. And that's when you start to blend in uh BTC and gold when you need to make people whole on the uh underlying uh or sticking to the peg. And so, um, yeah, I just think that this like whole setup is very bullish for accelerating just like all the things that we've been talking about because once the stable coin rails get on, you can just graft on better form of, you know, payment flows with a better money. >> Yeah. The other um thing to call out there along those lines is like, well, if Trump gets his way and we cut rates back towards zero, um those stable coin yields are going to look a lot different uh perhaps in a in a year or two. And then to your point, that's where it gets really interesting around like, well, what's actually the collateral? If if maybe you have golden BTC as your collateral instead of US treasuries, maybe you can still pay a nominal yield that's more attractive than whatever the um overnight rate happens to be. We have five minutes left of the last trade. Um, Michael, I I'll let you think of something to uh conjure up to talk about. I did want to call out though, just while you think of the uh place to wrap up here for anyone who wants to join, we have on the 12th of February at noon Eastern, we're hosting a webinar all focused about the individual and Bitcoin financial services and how you can think about securing Bitcoin for the long haul for yourself, your family, could be for your business. A lot of these principles apply for a business as well, but this webinar is going to be focused on the individuals and at least how we kind of provide frameworks, not necessarily provide um things that you must follow, but more so frameworks to think about how to manage the wealth because as we discussed, a lot of things are uncertain today. Um not, you know, only in the broader macro picture, but also as it just relates to Bitcoin. I mean, there's a lot of challenges with managing the wealth. There's the stakes are rising as the price does over time. And so we'll include in the show notes for anyone who does want to join on the 12th of February that webinar. Uh but but Michael, what do you think? We got a couple more minutes here. >> I think the the biggest thing is talk to your family and friends about this and then let's have them talk with us. And what I mean by that is most people just really don't fully appreciate. There's nobody that's credible to help shepherd somebody through this because I think most people understand there's a big problem. the money's broken, they don't have peace of mind, they need somebody to talk to and then they need solutions that are actually relevant because I just truly believe that's something we just completely discount is we can give people the problem but then unless you give them a solution and a solution sadly isn't a ledger having your PII leaked and telling them that 12 words can lose all their wealth and so uh we want to make it easier and easier for folks that may be already comfortable with their own setup. We obviously want to talk to you if you want to think about diversification or, you know, getting access to financial services for your Bitcoin, but the reality is a lot of your friends and family want to speak to. We're making it easy by, you know, taking consultations, reducing the cost by 50% to start, doing referral fees. Um, so yeah, we want to chat and then we have one extra vest because I have a bunch of swag being made, but we have one on-ramp vest. My ask is, um, we need to get some fire guests. Uh, anybody's on the table. You want Chimamoth, you want Trump, you want David Saxs, you want Jackson's mom, like whoever uh you guys want. So, >> I'm sure my mom would actually love to come on the podcast. >> That's actually a different topic that I don't think most uh realize that. I think all of our moms specifically listen to this podcast. >> Avid listen. >> It's a very strange [laughter] thing. My only take is because like when you grow up, you don't spend as much time with your family, especially if you're like a a male, I think, is different than like a woman. and uh that they like just tune in to get the insights. It's a very strange thing. But either way, so Jackson's mom, if she wants to join, we'd love to have you join and understand um a little bit more what goes on inside his head. But um on that note, if it's Jackson's mom and that gets the most likes, maybe that's who's going to come on the pod. But whoever gets the most likes next week, we will call out on >> Be careful what you wish for, Michael. >> We are going to get that. >> We had a few submissions from last week. People want People want Mel back. People want Mel back on. >> Where did the submissions Where did the submissions come in at? I saw a few on Twitter. >> We should get Mel Gibson on the pod. >> You got Madison. >> You got to retweet these submissions. I didn't see any of them. [ __ ] >> I saw a couple. I'll send them to you guys. >> Yeah, I'll I'll find him. Um >> yeah, we'll get Mel Madison back on the pod. Think uh James Czech is coming back soon as well and another special guest in the start of February. But yeah, let us know. Uh Michael will personally get to the post office. he will mail the vest to you. And uh yeah, I mean, anything else before we wrap here? I think we did a good job on our time today. >> That is a great tight rep. >> We got a bunch of uh >> bunch of presentations today. I think uh Brian's on a podcast with uh Robert. >> Yeah, Robin Robin S. Uh look out for that. I don't know when it'll drop, but probably within the next week or so. >> You got Roxom later uh broadcast with Braum. Um, so we're going to, like we said, leveling up. If anybody's interested using the services, getting involved with what we're doing, whether it's working, we're growing the team, you have a group you want us to present to, like we uh we're we're open for business. So, reach out and we'd love to work with you. >> We're open for podcasting. I'll start I'm going to start another podcast this week. All right, we'll see you guys. Bye >> later. Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the show. If you found the information valuable, please share the episode with a friend or leave a rating on your favorite podcast app. All the links we discussed in today's show will be in the show notes inside your podcast app. Before we finish, a quick reminder that Onra Media is forformational and entertainment purposes only and nothing should be construed as investment or legal advice. Regardless of where you are on your Bitcoin journey, we'd love to hear from you. Visit onrampbitcoin.com/cont to schedule a consultation with one of our private client adviserss.