Flash Forward: From Monetary Asset to Everyday Money

[Music] It all comes down to computers communicating. The information superighway can be a confusing mix of on-ramps and off-ramps. Bitcoin is worthless artificial gold. Is it still rat poison? Probably rat poison squared. We need to get into the world of okay, this is actually foundational technology. What the internet of money does is it creates a single network which can do a microtransaction to a gigat [Music] transaction. The internet is going to be one of the major forces for reducing the role of government. The one thing that's missing but that will soon be developed is a reliable ecash. Alrighty. Welcome back to Final Settlement. Today is June 2nd, 2025. Today on the show, I'm joined by uh my co-host Liam and Michael and a very special guest, Pierre Corbin, CEO and co-founder of Flash, uh portfolio company of of Early Riders. Very glad to have Pierre back on the show. How you doing, sir? Hey. Yeah. Hi, everyone. Uh thanks for having me back here and doing really good. Still recovering from uh from your Vegas trip, I would imagine. Yes, jet lags perhaps. Jet lag. Can't sleep all night only. And it's horrible because you know, so I live in Poland, right? And uh sunset, sorry, sunrise is at about 4:00 a.m. Uh so going to sleep because of a jet lag when it's already day out is uh makes it just harder. But uh yeah, I think uh recovering uh slowly. Guys, I think I figured out the the hack is so for next year, we probably don't go to the conference again, especially because it's in Vegas, but we have folks on from that were in Vegas right after and then the following week to recap and talk because we had this really great recap with Tim on or Thursday that came out Friday and the comments were really uh like helpful or insightful and that they like to be able to recap it and not necessarily have to go through the travel. So, uh, Pierre, if you're going to be there, maybe we'll we'll have you on a year from now and we'll we'll recap, uh, what the latest is going on. Sure. Sure. Happy to. So, yeah, maybe maybe diving in there logical place to start. Uh, Peter, was it your first time in Vegas or have you have you been there before? No, no, first time in Vegas. Uh, it's a very very funny place. Feels like just a a resort all around. I was surprised that there's over 2 million people living there. That's that's crazy. But it did remind me quite a bit of uh Dubai to be fair. and I spent quite a bit of time in Dubai. Uh so uh yeah, I mean it was it was it was just more of a pure uh holiday vibes whereas uh Dubai is more real life as well. Yeah. So what any any sort of key takeaways from from the week discussions you had any uh any alpha you want to leak different different conversations with with folks? Yeah. So I mean you know generally speaking it is a lot of what at least my feed shows on Twitter when it comes to the conference a lot of u you know as we call shitcoining not just uh bitcoin focused topics uh which I mean you know is fine I guess there's a bit of everything at least it brings people over to to these topics but uh I mean yeah generally speaking you know everyone has the opinion that of course bitcoin one and and I agree that bitcoin won I even talked you know with the uh so he's he's an old friend he's called uh and he's uh the person that leads the Bitcoin community in uh uh Bulgaria and he said that uh he's he feels missionless without a mission anymore because Bitcoin kind of won uh and and he you can really get this vibe um in uh at the conference but uh you know I think uh what matters is uh not Bitcoin that now the US government is trying to push because this is all full custody Bitcoin uh let's not forget what Bitcoin is actually trying to solve which is the fact that you know if you be responsible of your own money uh and not um you know be dependent on on a third party which you know is what both I mean us together early writers on ramp flash we're we're working on of course so yeah oh I was there a lot trying to push people as to yes wait but this isn't real Bitcoin this is just the equivalent of the traditional financial system on a new asset class uh but uh yeah let's not let's not lose the the mission here Um, but I feel the conference is a bit all over the place when it comes to that. Yeah, it's a little unfortunate. Um, I don't know who you referenced, but who said that because it kind of reminds me and bear with me. It's like the parallel, you know, when people say if you're depressed, just go help somebody else out. Like if somebody's depressed, they're thinking about themselves too much versus you just go out in the world and then that'll go away. It's very similar to like that notion. It's like maybe it's figured out for the individual, but when you think about from store of value for 8 billion people or payments that we talk about in being able to receive across the world, there's still like an insane amount of work to be done. Um, and then one of the things that stood out, uh, I think it wasn't until after the conference, and I think it was Jack's, um, mom, Brooke Mullers, I think she had a tweet that was showing the 2000 or 10 years ago, whatever that was, 2015, with, uh, Antonopoulos sitting in, um, Texas blockchain or Texas Bitcoin conference and he said 10 years from now, there will be 30 to 50,000 people, similar how the internet was, and it was kind of preient that that stood out there. Um, the the only other thing to share about the the Vegas stuff, I guess it makes sense in this in the from a continuity perspective because we've all been to like Miami and Nashville and the crazy amount of logistics and travel versus being able to be in a like consolidated area, you know, definitely helps and I think the infrastructure from Vegas independent of kind of the the Fiat vibes that it it reels off. Um, yeah. One Yeah, I think it's just um Oh, go ahead. Go ahead. Uh, no, I'm just just saying, yeah, it's just really big and and to be fair, it was very well organized, right? I think being able to organize something at such a big scale is is quite quite impressive. Uh, I mean, I didn't attend J Vance's talk. I didn't feel like lining up at 5:30 a.m. Uh, but uh I hear I hear it was it was yeah uh very packed. I did arrive right afterwards. Uh, and just as everyone was exiting the the main room, it was it was pretty crazy. Um, but no, so organization was was on point though, that's for sure. Nice. Yeah. Well, maybe um there was a few sort of announce. It's funny because there was, you know, obviously a lot of focus and talk about Bitcoin treasury companies and, you know, mostly looking at at Bitcoin as a store value reserve asset. Um and I think that's also been a lot of the rhetoric from, you know, the JD Vances of the world, you know, the government polic policy makers, the way they're looking at Bitcoin. But at the same time there was also you know a number of announcements and progress and development uh on the payment side of things and things and that's sort of you know where you spend most of your time focused. Pierre I'm curious what you made of some of the announcements on that side of things. Um you know Square had a few announcements around rolling out uh you know accepting payments for for all their merchant terminals. Um there was another very interesting announcement around you know some of the the work that they're doing on lightning specifically and their routing node um that's generating at a 9 9.7% annual yield. Um curious what what you made of some of the you know medium of exchange type announcements that happened which uh I think given the crowd there you know very trady companies and and as you put it you know not real Bitcoin. Uh so curious what what you made of all that. Yeah. So I think uh definitely the announcements by Square at least to me were the most relevant, the most important ones cuz uh you know everything else we've kind of already heard before. Uh having a strategic Bitcoin reserve is kind of the thing to do right now. Uh which is just uh interesting to observe and I feel it becomes less and less um you know mind-blowing compared to when Micro Strategy started doing it. Um, so yeah, it just feels like a very trendy thing and it even kind of gives the vibe of this is, you know, it could be an event around this that like will uh point to the end of the Bitcoin bull run, which which would be kind of I mean just speculating here, but uh yeah and uh but but essentially yeah, I think uh there's two things around payments that I think are pretty interesting. Um, first of all, um, when it comes to Square, I think the fact that they're now integrating Lightning Payments for all of their merchants, this is just amazing. Um, simply because of course it, um, makes the Lightning Network more accessible. All of these merchants are now people that will also have direct access to Bitcoin. Um, this will of course encourage more people to spend in Bitcoin. And I think this is generally uh good news all around and for for the entire industry and for the payments industry as well. You know a lot of the feedback that we get is that most people um when they buy Bitcoin they first go on some Coinbase and then as they get educated they go and look for other options that can protect their funds better. Like I suppose that's also how it works with with on-ramp. And the same thing is true with payments, right? A lot of people they start with the basic ones that everyone the big names that everyone understands. But then as they get more educated and some data sometimes is leaked here and there uh some funds are lost here and there um they uh kind of want to start looking at at other options and this is where you know uh flesh is a very logical next step uh for for such companies. So I mean I think generally speaking square accepting lightning payments that's uh ve very welcome. Now another one that I think is pretty interesting is the fact that there are a lot of payment solutions out there that are not like Square. Square is um you know fully regulated fully um follows all of the regulations that are needed when it comes to custodying KYC anti-money laundering um processes all of this and there are a lot in the space that are custodians and do not do that. And it's just uh interesting to observe and uh kind of you know raises the question what's what's going to happen next. I know you know um Steak and Shake um for example they they were at the conference as well. They had a booth. Um they're using a competitor of ours that is based out of they're based out of Dubai. Um they don't KYC they don't AML. Um so you know big big question mark as to how long they're going to be able to uh run this business this way with US customers given the regulations that that are coming. I mean of course you know at this stage regulations in the US the only thing we know of is the Genius Act that at this stage only regulates stable coins but often times uh shows how the rest of the industry will will be uh regulated which I mean I think is the logical way of approaching it. If you're a custodian, you need to have custodian uh processes, which makes sense because you're a risk for for individuals. And so, you know, with with the all of this knowledge and seeing all these businesses that are accepting payments through these rails, um, sure it's easier. Um, and sure, you know, they're good options, but as these recognitions come into play, I think these this environment can can change for for them as well, which, you know, from Flash's perspective just strengthens exactly what what we're doing because the whole goal is no intermediaries uh and not having to rely on on other uh custodians where it's not needed essentially and I think payment is not needed when it comes to uh holding custody of of user expense uh I mean rather custody of user funds is not needed in the payment space. Um yeah um I don't know maybe you have some reactions when it comes to that. I do have some extra thoughts when it comes to the whole lightning network thing of Square. Go ahead. I I was just going to say it's it's really bullish, too, just because um we've we've really seen a ton of focus on Bitcoin Treasury companies, but this is really great for just like companies that want a Bitcoin treasury and it doesn't need to necessarily be the full focus of their entire company. But like to Michael's point earlier, like Bitcoin is not like some like very fringe idea where nobody understands, you know, if it has any value at all. Um it's just now in kind of in I I guess maybe phase two of like how to optimize your exposure to it of you know how to optimize payments. Um what to do as like a company if you want to integrate it into your business. Do you hold it? Do you just you know it seems like stake and shake maybe just goes the route of you know liquidating it and that's the option that Square gives you once you accept it for payment. Um, but even with that, there are many times going to be reduced fees and quicker settlement. I don't know exactly what Square is going to offer like that, but um, it seems like that's just significantly better than the merchant side. Um, and it does just give additional exposure and, you know, education from very wellrespected players who can allow for different exposure from a number of different people. Um, so I mean I I don't see how this is anything but but really exciting for a number of different uh you know aspects and and um and that's kind of before we even touch on the side. Yeah. So just just to note stick and shake they're not using square though. Stick and shake uses uh uh speed. Mhm. Um, sorry, I don't know if I'm So, I was going to bring up um Pierre the I hear the notion of the um non-custodial and I think there's a delicate balance because let's say it's stake and shake or whoever and they don't know who their counterparty is and they use the easiest route and then they get rugged whether they get rugged because of regulation or they get rugged because wherever their custodial wallet is. The problem with that is independent if we agree if it's right or wrong like that's the easy route and it's the tooling that vertically integrates to make it very simple in the same way square you log in you have a bank account it accepts it to it um you know the payments and then it sweeps and takes the fee and it's pretty straightforward it gives you some invoicing and other tooling so how do you think about that experience because there's some part component of value ad that you can bring your own custody setup and there's the other part where the vast majority of people won't want to think about that they'll naturally either want to bring in the Bitcoin autocon convert or sweep into a robust custody solution looking at their partner their partner that they're using it as their their source of truth or kind of advocate to come into the space like how do you think about that ease of access and the delicate balance uh yeah I think um because I I don't have any problem with custody in fact I think custody is yeah very welcome when it comes to holding funds uh and especially I like you know the more hybrid models with like mostly institution custody like you guys offer Um but it's really when I when I say that custody is something that shouldn't happen. It's in the payment side of things. Uh we don't need you know the an intermediary when it comes to actually facilitating payments right this is what what we're working at solving uh at flash. So it's it's really when it comes to that now um you know at this stage while we know we have the technology and we're we're developing and developing the use cases for it. It's uh really more a matter of um making sure that these custodial solutions can plug into these environments more more easily in order to facilitate uh the non-custodial payments. But you know just to simplify the non-custodial part, it's really about no intermediaries, right? Because there there can be custody on both sides of where the Bitcoin comes from and where it's going. It's just that in this transaction, there shouldn't be an intermediary because the tech allows us to do it. I mean, after all, you know, the my paper is about peer-to-peer electronic cash systems. So, it's about making sure that we remove these intermediaries in the payment. Um cuz I think for new people coming into the space it it makes perfect sense to look for custodial solutions that have you know I know for just more secure solutions not relying on your own individual security when you may not be familiar with all of these processes and the right the right way of doing it. Uh I mean I know that the first time as an individual that I took proper custody of my funds that that was an entire first first step to take right. Uh, and it's uh it's it's it's not an easy one because it I mean it makes you feel very responsible all of a sudden. And and it's also counterintuitive because the concept of custody doesn't really exist uh outside of the world of Bitcoin or you know even thinking more wider crypto because uh everyone is just so used to custody and everything that is uh payments and holding your your money in in a bank account. Uh so so that's why you know I I maybe prefer just saying no intermediaries when it comes to the payment side of things. Um and and essentially yeah I think you know when it comes to Square it's easier if you come to to Try Speed it's easier. Although I mean Try Speed again I think is is easier because they don't require KYC and they don't have all of these processes uh because we're still in this gray area of regulation. Square of course does require all of this. Um and and you know many businesses are are are fine with that which which makes sense and Square are a custodian temporary custodian of of these payments and allow to you know um directly either offramp uh or just also hold it in bitcoin directly through their other uh services which is interesting to see. I mean they did part of block they did uh release bitky which is a hardware wallet. Uh but that is I think you know the next step will be how do they integrate this nicely in the rest of of their tools. Um yeah big we don't we don't ever get to talk about bit key. We don't have to do it here but I just uh nobody talks about in the lexicon or like in the the the Twitter space because there's a lot of people spouting. None of those people have ever onboarded thousands of people and like real significant capital. and what that product is is the is pure too much money and too many smart people sitting in a room ideulating on what the market wants versus building it like this is that's fundamental to the thing. It's like it's for nobody when you really break it down because everyone will say it's for somebody else or their grandparents or whatever. It's like if it's for your grandparents and they're going to put significant wealth and they don't understand it and you can't recover like how much wealth would you put and if it's not for the hardcore person like who is it for? It's for really nobody and nobody really says that because they've never had to sit on calls and walk people through and the dongles and the recovery and the questions that are asked. No serious person is putting significant capital on a bit key multi-IG setup. So then it's like what are you doing here? Yeah. Yeah. So I personally didn't use bit. I did hear many people say that it's it's the hardware wallet that they think is the easiest to use and so on, but I don't know. I personally I didn't use it myself. It's got a nice design, I guess. Uh but uh yeah, it feels uh there's no screen. There's no screen. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I agree. But but I mean, of course, the the point is for you to be able to use it through their app, right? It's just there as a external signing device. Um yeah, but the fascinating part is like we space we stay so close to the space the past two weeks. Uh it just came out Ledger Live had a a malicious uh you know software download whatever like so how like they're not going to come up with a different app or a side load like you can get somebody's phone overnight swap out the app and then sign like there's so many different attack vectors if you don't if you aren't able to see it from an external device. Yeah. Which goes back to then it's just for fun and if it's just for fun just put it on a single say cold card and call it a day. Yeah. Yeah. Know it's more secure and you can see Yeah, definitely. I mean in the end um you have to be able to validate including from the device that you're sending to the right address as expected because yes the attack vectors if you don't see all of a sudden I mean yeah you can you can really get trapped easily. Maybe um maybe just circling back to to the payment side of things and uh for for maybe folks in the audience who who haven't heard about flash uh specifically, Pier, maybe if you could give um sort of just a brief overview of what what Flash does and then I'll pull up this um this write up in Bitcoin Mag from a couple weeks ago um and you know maybe just talk through some of the some of the things you guys are working on uh with Flash 2.0 and and um sort of the road map in general. Yeah, sure. Um, so essentially at Flash, um, you know, what we found is that there's, uh, really good technology at the protocol level that allows us to interact with wallets in a pretty novel way that unlocks a couple new features, um, that didn't exist in Bitcoin until now. One of them is direct debit essentially, um, where we can just easily interact with with wallets. Uh so we have a set of different tools um you know for content creators for in-person commerce for e-commerce platform such as subscriptions so automatic recurring payments and all of these features and actually invoicing too. We just launched invoicing uh last week I believe um and we're we're going to be pushing this uh some more as well. Every single tool that we have is just uh through basic communication with the user wallet and allows us to make sure that we are not an intermediary in the payment which means that there's there's no KYC. It's free to get started. Uh and essentially um yeah it's a it's a we believe the easiest and fastest option to get started with with Bitcoin payments. Um again with this uh the the the truly um um revolutionary side that we are trying to to push is the fact that if you are a payment processor, you no longer need to hold custody of merchants funds. We can just facilitate these peer-to-peer transactions, which of course reduces the time transactions end up in the merchants's pocket, the fees that merchants have to pay. um as well as um the general user experience that it is to get started. So yeah, so that that's kind of what what we're we're up to and we have yeah very big set of tools um and uh and the the more recent one that we we want to push is uh invoicing. Now of course in the traditional fiat world invoicing tools are usually free um and and so that that's how we're going to be releasing also our invoicing. So, starting next week, it'll be completely free for any freelancer to come over Flash and uh over to Flash, create invoices, send them to to their employer uh for for whatever kind of job they're they're doing. And uh we won't take uh any transactions fee for that. This will just depend on the network fees and what wallets you use. Um right. So, we also have a a wallet uh that is right now in uh beta. So, it's still in test flight and uh next month we hope to be able to release it on the app stores. Uh so for self-custodial again we do not want to hold anyone's money touch anyone's money um whether you know the wallet that they earn to or even how they earn in this flow of payments right yeah it's a it's an insane you know uh tool set or there's a lot of tooling and a lot that's been added I was looking over yesterday curious pier like how would you is it a fair um categorization there's like two parts to the business in the sense that there's like merchant tooling somebody can onboard um get access to these robust different tool sets for integration into like Woo Commerce, Shopify and then create the invoice naturally figure out curious on like exactly the flow around custody because that's still the thing that I like harp on is if it there's not a direct version of what they can do that's robust that's a point of friction in my mind but then the second part is around noster uh wallet connect and bringing a whole layer of other native um aspects to payments that have historically not been there when it comes to subscriptions and pooling. And is that fair to separate them or I know they merge in some respects, but I feel like they kind of have two different either use cases or um areas of your business that are like from a technology stack. Yeah. So, uh definitely I mean at the heart of it all is always Nostra Wallet Connect because this is the tech that we use to be able to interact with wallets. Now, if you think of it in the most basic way, it's just a um a shared API among all compatible wallets uh which is now becoming quite the standard as most new lightning wallets are releasing with master wall connect uh integrations and essentially it allows it to directly communicate with with the wallet. So how it works is whatever checkout uh you have so it can be our e-commerce checkout for example um well then the the user the customer is redirected to our hosted checkout page and there we will show a lightning QR code uh so a payment request we're about also to release also support for onchain payments so they'll be both onchain and lightning paid to the same wallet and essentially um these payment requests that appear on screen are generated by the merchant wallet directly. So it is not a payment that goes to one of our wallets and we redirect. It's a payment that will go directly to the merchant uh which increases a lot of uh yeah security for for for the merchant and also allows to create this direct relationship in fact between the customer and and the brands they're they're buying products from and and this is true for everything. Now one thing where we're also making a lot of changes thanks to Nostrag Knight is uh through backend payments. So if you think of uh traditional payments in the bitcoin space, there's usually a QR code and you have to scan the QR code from your phone and you have to confirm the transaction and this is how the funds are sent. Well, Nostra wallet connect allows us to manage a lot of this in the back end and this is how we do it subscriptions. So subscriptions is two-sided. There's the side that is the merchant side which of course you know in the end the tool that we have is for merchants to be able to uh monetize through automatic recurring payments whether it's daily, weekly, monthly, we have a bunch of options there. Um and then of course there's the consumer side which is how customers can subscribe to these platforms right and when it comes to the the flow of payments in that case um essentially we do the exact same thing except that we communicate using master wall connect in our back end so um the the the the exact user flow is he arrives on our subscription checkout page he chooses his plan depending on what the merchant uh setup and um when he chose his plan. He needs to verify his email address. Pretty basic kind of 2FA. And then instead of scanning a QR code to make a payment, he has to connect his wallet. And in connecting his wallet, we create a a a connection that that we store that has a set budget. We cannot charge more than what the user authorized us to to charge. And then from the in in our back end, we will generate a lightning payment request from the merchant wallet. The user never sees it. And then using the noster connection of the customer, we're going to pay that invoice that was generated by the merchant. So we're also facilitating a peer-to-peer transaction, but the actual transaction doesn't happen in the front end. It is purely in in the back end. And then of course, how how do we get paid in in the process is leveraging the same direct debit approach is after the merchant got paid, well then we can trigger a payment from his wallet to ours. And so the flow is the same is rather than you know interacting with the merchant wallet directly we interact with the flash wallet we generate a payment request and then we get the merchant to pay this in the back end right so there's there's two backend payments that happen allowing us to not be an intermediary in the flow of funds we really just take a service fee because all of this happened through through our platform which is uh I think the way forward um of course for uh payment processors because it is so easy to do and is is instant now compared to the fact that it was impossible up until now. Now it has just become well not necessarily easy. I'm not going to lie, but it became possible at least. Uh and uh and so we're we're unlocking these use cases and I think it goes beyond just subscription. It goes beyond um merchants. I think it can go to all kind of uh peer-to-peer payments in any platform. Um and and I think that's that's what we're going to start seeing little by little. Yeah, let's let's talk about um some of like your interesting it could be even be like moonshots, but to back into that where you're thinking where it can go is um you referenced had been historically impossible. So, the first thing my mind went to anybody listening or hear is like if you don't use u was it like Mulvad and some of the VPN providers that require Bitcoin payments, you generally end up like tapping out unless you're going to you know if you're going to pay in Bitcoin because every month you have to reset it or you can pay for like three months. Um but then my mind went to well what other use cases are globally that somebody wants to accept Bitcoin on a reoccurring basis and that they never did. So, they either just didn't offer to a segment of the market or never opened up Bitcoin because you would imagine you probably lose, you know, a conversion rate if somebody goes and signs up for Bitcoin for one month and then you never see them again because they just didn't. That's that's what would happen with me with multiple VPN providers. Um but then it kind of ties into this notion we've talked about a little bit before of um it's like the the growth of the internet was around like Metaf's law which is the Ethernet or like amount of connectivity and then Moore's law which is lowering the cost of uh you know semiconductors and just technology and those together is what you know kind of created the modern day kind of like proliferation of technology and then if you take that to where we're at today it's AI and Bitcoin where AI is the version of Moore's law you can do more worth less and then Bitcoin is, you know, the Metcast law. You're able to, you know, basically connect everyone that hadn't been. So, you take all those together and this is what kind of leads to where do you think what are some interesting examples of um whether it's what you were referencing with Noster Wallet Connect and the connectivity that just hadn't been done before or it's not even been done before. It's like just opens up more of a market where somebody could have been in Poland and only offered there because they couldn't get a US bank account or couldn't offer their goods and services or technology stack to US citizens Latin America now just completely change uh what are you seeing or thinking about? Yeah. So I mean I think the the use cases can can go really uh quite crazy uh moving forward because you know Nostra Wild connect of course ma makes these these things easier and more interoperable especially I think this is the more important part is the fact that it's interoperable um and and of course can allow the automation of uh payments in self custody so without intermediaries which means it removes friction of you know needing KYC on a bunch of platforms and so on uh but also microtransactions, right? So, the fee that we take uh if someone is selling, you know, a product that is uh $1 worth, but we can still capture a fee because we're talking of microtransactions and and I think this is the concept that can scale um really uh big time. So, you know, the um I guess I guess we must have spoken about that. Uh the so flash was a spin-off of a previous project that we were working on uh called uh Nostrides originally. a horrible name, but essentially what we were working on was leveraging uh AI, Noster, and Lightning Payments. And the way we did that was essentially uh and we had created an entire chatbot that was that was built off of that where um for each API request that was done, we would then send a lightning invoice through an SDK and then uh a backend payment would happen directly and the response of that API would be sent only if the lightning invoice was paid. Um and you know this is in fact how we started really using Nostra wall connect and when we realized the power of it because all of a sudden you know we were originally using two technologies in the lightning space of lightning addresses and and no wall connect we had them both together and uh the lightning addresses issue as a platform that is trying to coordinate payments is that there is no way to for you to capture a fee without taking custody of user response. Right. And and this is when we realized actually we solved this problem with master wild connect and when so the week we soft released master eggs um we uh also thought we should change and this is when we should move on to flash uh but that's also when I told my co-founder okay but I think right here is the moment where we should like take the decision of moving away from lightning addresses and focus only on lost wet because that's the only real way to take uh a fee for every single transaction. ction that we can simplify the flow for without ever holding custody of users funds, right? And so if we were to recreate this entire API payments platform, which we, you know, do plan on recreating, um, then we would do it using NW because it is so much easier. In fact, you know, um, and I don't want to get too technical either, but there's this big project called L402 that is essentially doing that created by Lightning Labs. And I think it's just a complicated way of doing it. You have to lock up some Bitcoin and give temporary access to a third party so that he can just take this Bitcoin um whenever he needs from this locked up bitcoin. Essentially, it's not what I consider a direct debit kind of way of working. And and I think the way forward is through this direct debit feature that Nostra W connect enables without needing to lock up some some Bitcoin because I mean if I'm using a certain API and uh sure I know that uh there's X amount of transactions that are going to happen, I don't necessarily want to lock up more Bitcoin than I need to and I in fact don't want to lock up any Bitcoin in theory, right? I should be able to just really have a pay-per-use experience. the moment you lock up some funds, it's not pay-per- use experience anymore. And Nostra Connect allows us to uh really create these pay-per-use experiences, pay-per-click experiences um uh all the way. And so I think it can apply to the way AI uh APIs and AIs communicate between one another through these endpoints. I think and this is kind of a recurring theme that we've heard a lot in the bitcoin space that lightning is going to be um and so bitcoin through lightning is going to be the money of uh AI agents. I think this is true because there is no more efficient payment network out there uh that allows for such small transactions but I think it's true also for advertisements. Uh we created a proof of concept last year that allowed for a direct pay-per-click literal pay-per-click uh unlike today where you go on Google ads uh or any of such alternatives and you have to pay directly. So again you kind of set the budget but you prepay it and then little by little it's going to be charged for supposedly clicks. You just see dashboards uh that are communicated to you. Well, what uh what we had built is essentially a literal paper click where you connect your wallet through Nostra wall connect and you authorize a certain budget but you don't pay for anything. there's a maximum amount that you will commit for this uh ad campaign that you have, but it will only be charged when there are actual clicks, right? Which is the right way of doing it and making sure that again there's no intermediaries in the payment and no one is there to take your funds uh when they shouldn't. Uh and you know, I think this this one is a really big one. I have a personal story that maybe I told you guys. So um so the first thing I did in Bitcoin was a Bitcoin documentary, right? It's on YouTube, The Great Reset and the Rise of Bitcoin. And uh it so it buzzed quite a bit and so very quickly I was able to monetize the channel which as soon as I could I did. Um for this you need I think about 350,000 no 3 and a half thousand followers and maybe 150,000 views something like that. 200,000 views and uh so I monetized and I had to wait for a certain threshold before I could withdraw it. Great. that's already, you know, it shows what the limits of certain custodians and intermediaries are. And the moment I wanted to withdraw these funds, um, I wasn't allowed to. Google blocked me. They shadowbanned my channel. They locked my account. I couldn't monetize anymore. And essentially, it took three months of back and forth between uh Google Pay and YouTube saying, "It's their fault. No, it's their fault. No, it's their fault." and impossible for me to get my funds back. And I think, you know, that's the kind of things where had I been paid directly to my wallet, there would be no problem. I wouldn't have any problem with my channel and with YouTube at all. So, you know, that that's the kind of problems that that I think can can be solved directly thanks to these uh microtransaction pay-per-clicks uh direct debit uh environment while YouTube could still earn because they could still trigger uh payments from my wallet directly, right? So I think these are the kind of use cases that are completely new and that's that we're going to see uh moving forward. Um but you know it's going to take a bit of time of course uh Bitcoin has to properly become the standard internet money between developers. I think this is essentially uh what needs to happen. Developers that are not from the Bitcoin space to also adopt it and then they will start using it and how they pay each other. Hi guys, hope you're enjoying the podcast with Pierre. It was a great one. Just wanted to share a quick word uh from On-Ramp about our private client services. A lot of clients come to us with significant balances and they're hoping to get white glove treatment whether it's via our onboarding process helping and moving assets from a collaborative custody or single uh hardware device or a third party exchange like a Coinbase. we support with all of that and much more whether it's a virtual family office access to private equity in the Bitcoin space VR fund early riders and also the guild network which really brings together worldclass professionals uh globally that are looking to either collaborate build companies in the space advise companies or just share professional experience uh as it relates to this new monetary order that's being shaped before us. Uh, if you'd like to learn about any of that, you can reach out to me um at michaelbbitcoin.com or if you want to reach out to the group at hellonbbitcoin.com. Now, back to the rest of the show. Yeah. No, that's fascinating. I think um slight slight pivot from this, but I think another theme of you know, if we just think about the conference and and sort of all the activity and adoption that's been occurring recently, there's been a lot of talk about stable coins. I think the the last time that uh we had you on the show, Pierre, we were talking about, you know, Tether had just announced that they were going to uh bring Tether to the Lightning Network. Um I'm curious to get your thoughts, updated thoughts on one sort of like user proclivity uh to use stable coins instead of like actually spending SATs and where you see that um sort of evolving or developing as as Tether in particular gets more invi involved on the Bitcoin and Lightning side. Um and and also just general thoughts on um you know what were the conversations from last week around um people building around stable coins as opposed to just building around uh sats and bitcoin before pier before you jump in um we have about 30 minutes and like I I don't know where Brian else wants to go and Liam but I've been fascinated recently about this the stable coin proliferation and I know you had a background in your consulting days and looking at flow of funds and interchange so if you need to start from the top just curious in general like your thoughts around stable coins, how they fit into this global landscape and you know if you want to jump directly to Brian but we can spend some time here because I do think there's a lot to cover. Um we're seeing a lot happening in the banking system in the US and then also globally to to touch on. I'm curious to get your thoughts. Yeah. So I mean generally speaking I think stable coins have I mean they're a great bridge for people to get into the space because uh you can allow people to spend interact with US dollar equivalent stable coins. I'm thinking mostly US dollar because yeah there are some other stable coins but I don't know they're not really used that much. It's uh yeah there isn't the same liquidity. So I think USDT is what matters. USDC uh as well, but mostly USDT is is kind of the the gold standard of stable coins. Um and and I think I mean they're great to yeah bridge the gap that exists between the traditional world and the Bitcoin world and their utility is essentially what we're seeing, right? A lot of third world countries, they want USDT because it allows them to save in dollars, which is the currency everyone wants to save in as opposed to, you know, every other currency um losing value faster than the US dollar because the these are the general dynamics. Uh so everyone wants US dollar. Not everyone can get US dollar, but everyone can get USD. And I think this this is very very interesting. So being able to see this environment grow uh is yeah very important. Now one thing to keep in mind is of course the fact that um holding USDT is not holding Bitcoin and sure the US dollar loses value slower than any other currency but it still loses value. Uh and you know holding Bitcoin if uh someone is thinking more long term is is kind of the the approach I think that that makes more sense. Now when it comes to also bringing this into the lightning network, I mean it's the most efficient payment network, the most private and um that is really growing in in the Bitcoin space. Anything can be added now to uh Bitcoin. Anything can be added to the lightning network thanks to Taproot assets. Now Tether, sure they're announcing and reannouncing and reannouncing. Uh that's uh when will it come out? I'm I'm not quite sure. Uh hopefully pretty soon. I think, you know, maybe they're trying to align this with some of their other investments as well, like uh um you know, they put a bunch of money inside of uh um uh Rumble recently and the they are announcing their wallet that will be both bitcoin and USDT wallet. So, I don't know, maybe they're they're, you know, waiting to make sure that the use case can be integrated there directly uh to make it uh boom. But but I mean, I welcome it to be honest. I think it's it's it's a good move um because it will simplify the onboarding to Bitcoin as well um on the most efficient payment network that exists uh right now in in the world. So yeah, I think uh it's uh just uh interesting to see and interesting to see how their entire model is going to work uh compared to um sending bitcoin over the lightning network because there is the concept of liquidity on the lightning network where all the the nodes where these payments they hop through they need to have the liquidity of the transaction that is going through the node. How is this going to work with USDT? Um because there I mean no node currently has USDT on lightning. So is every single node going to have to also add this in order to be able to be a node that routes these payments? I I don't know. Maybe they're going to use SATs underneath to be able to pay for the routing of these payments. then uh problems I think user experience problems might come into play where um you know if you've ever made a transaction on any other blockchain that uses USDT. So for example I tried paying once developer in USDT over Tron because Tron is the cheapest network uh right now to pay through USDT. Well, it's it's a bit of a pain because sure, one thing is to have USDT and you can make this transaction, but in order to be able to do it well, you need to actually have Tron. I do not care for Tron at all. So, you know, I'm okay buying the USDT on transended, but just buying Tron in order to be able to make this transaction very, very painful. And you know, for people that just want to be able to spend in USDT, if they need to if they face the same user experience problem because all of a sudden they need to have USDT and they need to have Bitcoin, it means that they need to also go buy Bitcoin when they might not care about it, right? So, you know, the question is will is this something that will be sold by the USDT routing of payments or will it be sold by the nodes themselves and how they route these payments? That's that's the kind of question I still didn't get an answer to. uh because I mean yeah we didn't have uh let's say mainet so production ready version of um USDT transactions over the lightning network um so question mark there to be honest but but I think it's it's pretty exciting especially that what I feel is missing in the world of USDT payments and we're facing this at flash as well so you know our wallet is is using the liquid network and it means that you know there's a bunch of assets that are available on liquid I don't care for most of them, but there is USDT and and that's cool because you know we could offer already today and we wanted to offer USDT uh balances and support directly inside of flash. But the issue is that who us who uses USDT on liquids? Uh no one literally right. And so then um in order for us to allow merchants to be able to accept payments in USDT this way, well then it means that we would need to allow for the conversion from different USDT from other blockchains into USDT on liquid. But then how do you do that without introducing custodial solutions which we are trying to stay away completely because there are solutions out there like sides shift. Side shift is great, very well integrated with the liquid network as well and we'd be able to do that but they are temporarily holding user funds and I think could be categorized in the future as money transmitters and it would put at risk our entire platform and users that do not interact with it at all, do not care, they would also have to KYC through us which is you know what we're trying to to stay away from. And I think stablecoin on lightning maybe could be the opportunity to simplify this because just like lightning I think is going to grow as being the payment network that links all of the different bitcoin networks because they all have their their benefits right onchain is the ultimate that you want to be able to use. Um liquid I think is great in order to be able to start with a zero balance. Uh and lightning is is a great solution for instant payments but also to swap in full um atomic swap. So again, no no custodials um in these kind of uh interactions um directly from one network to the other. Lightning being at at the heart of it. So you know is there potential for stable coins uh on lightning to solve this problem between the lack of interoperability of all of these chains? I think the potential is there but uh but we'll see. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I guess there's two there's two aspects I when I think about stable coins I think of and maybe for this topic we focus on like the individual and peer-to-peer I think there's the other version which is B2B and the opportunity that the stripes and large companies are are after and they're not going to be transacting on Lightning or any or Tron for um I guess TBD what that looks like but I don't know if I've ever heard I'm curious like Liam and Brian if you have heard a good um because Even Liam, I'm sorry, Pierre, you sharing like if there's a great reason to put stable coins on Lightning and like where that goes. The best I had heard was ultimately the state between both nodes not having to go back to the blockchain. Um, if you're using it for like AI agents and you're having like tether like in dollars be able to be used and they're going to it's going to be so fast that you're not going to want to settle on a Tron or whatever. That's like what I've heard. I don't know if that's true. Now, this is like above my pay grade. The thing that I will share that kind of doesn't make sense is like is is this notion of uh inflation and people want stables versus Bitcoin's volatility. It's like a Bitcoin's volatility is pretty much in your favor. Um and if it's against you, well, you're it's in relative or context to what's it against you in your local currency, right? And so it's more of like if you just obiscate that it's Bitcoin you're holding and so you have a US dollar price and then the number of SATs, why aren't people just holding SATs? Because the thing that we didn't I didn't mention is the counterparty risk of the the other stable coin you have whether it's the blockchain or the you know whoever's holding the stable coin or issuing it. So all that gets bypassed. It almost feels like just like an education thing where people are just like why am I holding stables versus just buying the SATs and then being done with it and and reducing all that and that's a much global liquid network. Well, there are two things there that I think are uh worth pointing out. One is the privacy of the lightning network versus the other chains. And um you know, it's interesting to see Palmer Lucky invested uh in a different stable coin that has no product market fit. like all these defense guys just understand that like the flow of capital and like understanding the data of uh every user is definitely something that's of strategic importance especially for you know a stable coin issuer that's going to be buying US treasuries. Um, and then number two, um, with respect to, you know, just holding SAT versus, uh, USGT, I completely agree, but I've also, you know, been in Bitcoin for a little bit of time. Understand this deeply. Most people are just, they're very riskaverse and think that, you know, Bitcoin just uh is way too volatile for them. I understand definitely the um you know working capital needing at least some amount of USDT if you're in uh one of these countries where you have you know specific costs that you need to meet every month and Bitcoin could potentially be too volatile but yeah every time you have excess savings it just makes sense to automatically sweep them into Bitcoin as long as you have enough um capital that you can meet your working capital needs. I think that there's just so much education that needs to be done and a lot of this is just like focused on the US where we have a bunch of savings but you know in the emerging uh countries where this isn't necessarily uh or there's not quite as much education but there's more demand for these stable coins it's just not quite there yet. Yeah, those are good points that like I didn't, you know, discount it that Tether has a global brand like the dollar now. And so you're much more likely to trust Tether than to trust Bitcoin if you're in an emerging market for a lot of people. Um and so then if businesses are holding larger amounts of treasury balances and then the other side of that I didn't think about that from the andal side but that makes sense that there's just like Orwellian you know we saw Palunteer and Trump or whatever this past weekend like these guys if they want to see into how the flow of funds are happening that's an interesting dynamic when it comes to USDT over lightning versus um versus over like the like on a blockchain. Yeah 100%. Go ahead Pierre. Yeah. So again, that's supposedly, right? Because we don't exactly know how how this is going to work, right? Uh and so supposedly will be just as private for USDT over lightning. Um uh as as Bitcoin is over lightning, but but we don't know that yet. That's that's kind of the the thing uh because you know there is also uh regulation around stable coins coming to the US and that's yeah a big question as to how this will be handled. um and and how this actually because you know there there will be always privacy in how the routing of these payments happen over the lightning network um but it it won't be sat moving around the lightning network. The lightning network will be the the communication layer to forward these transactions. So we still need to see exactly what does it look like in terms of privacy at the the you know whoever is initiating the transaction and whoever is receiving this transaction. Uh and I I don't know this yet you know it makes sense. It's like tour. It's whoever the nodes are that are you're coming in and out are where you're going to have the vulnerabilities and it's pretty much going to be like tether running the do. Yeah, essentially our agencies that just, you know, are looking to understand I think at this point they're pretty much the same. So we're we're good there. Yeah. Now I mean I know that there is of course a lot of work that is being done in the lightning space but you know that's where I don't know how this applies to USDT but there is a lot of work being done in the lightning uh world to make sure that more privacy is added than what currently exists. Uh the goal being that the routing nodes don't know who is the end recipient and who sent this bitcoin originally. They just know who came before and who the funds are going to after. So this is great if a similar model can work in USDT. Well then yeah I think uh I think we'll be good. But but again it's it's not sat flowing over lightning. It's USDT flowing over lightning. Um, so I suspect it'll work in its own way with Tether at the middle of it. The the beauty of all this is like, and I think we all directionally agree like the cat's out of the bag. It reminds me of the internet, right? The internet's out. Free information will flow. And so I think that's why I get excited or I think about stable coins is it's just the gateway. We saw like a small example with Tether and Bitcoin and the pair and what it allowed people to get into BTC that now this is becoming again it's very Orwell in but it's also opening up the aperture of the average individual that money is digital and so the thing we didn't touch on here is like if somebody's coming in digital then they can get into lightning well then it goes back to the ecash component and if you have all these different aspects that are starting to tie together because the cat's out of the bag when it comes to stable getting access to Bitcoin in the same way of lightning getting access to ecash or a a proxy dollar like entrepreneurs are going to figure it out because um the common thing you mentioned the genius act is the banks and giving yield back and like they don't historically do that and that's like a thing that they're trying to put in or keep out but it's like this reality that we live in a global market so somebody's going to find somewhere to give you back a percentage and that's where free competition comes in it's this it kind of ties into the tether and like you're going to back your stable coin with BTC because it's the pragmatic thing to do if you're going to, you know, um, rely on it to hold your dollar peg. And so that free market example is similar. What's going to come over to Lightning and, um, eCash and somebody's going to figure out a way to to keep a static dollar. They're going to, uh, have credibility, and then part of that is going to be privacy baked in, and then it's just that's where we're at. Um, it's just going to take some time. Yeah. Yeah. And we don't exactly know what it's what it's going to look like at this stage. Uh but I mean you know I think uh I'm quite hopeful I guess maybe naive uh but yeah hoping that it's only going to bring more adoption to the lightning network and and more liquidity as well right because uh of course it's in uh tether's interest to make sure that um the lightning network is more used and and you know and actually I think it's pretty interesting when we're talking about yield and all of these different elements when uh you know uh you mentioned earlier Brian the announcement that Square made about exactly 9.7 um uh yearly yield on the transaction fees they take on the lightning network. I mean to be honest I was shocked when I heard that this like isn't this so much cooler as a strategic Bitcoin reserve strategy than just holding it on some you know wallet and sleeping like at least it can be put to use uh directly on the lightning network generate yield while you know being uh secure uh and locked up in multi contracts for you. I think that's pretty cool. Maybe for folks who don't understand what what I have on the screen here, can you break down like kind of what this means and why it is uh sort of a an important um step in the progress of lightning network generally? Yeah, sure. So, essentially um cash app uh is inter integrated with the lightning network and they get quite a few transactions on the lightning network. Now for the lightning network to work again there's different nodes and transactions just hop from node to node until they reach their um destination. You don't know how many nodes it might go through. It depends on you know the node itself that you're connected to and so on. And so um what nodes need is liquidity because when a payment goes through your node, you need to have the same amount that you're receiving to be able to forward it. And then when the transa transaction is settled then all of this liquidity gets settled uh backwards as well. It all happens pretty much instantly. So it's very very simple but every node needs this liquidity. Now uh cash app they have 184 bitcoin uh that is locked in the lightning network. It's multi contract. So it's you know bitcoin that is onchain that is just locked with multisc contract so that this bitcoin is essentially available through the lightning network and it avoids the double spending problem. Um and essentially for each single transaction that is routed note and that that's optional in fact in how you set up your note but you can uh take a fee for routing this this transaction and it's just a few sats or you know depending on the node the price can go up you can set it however you want and so cash app obviously they're taking a fee and this fee means that because their bitcoin is locked up in this multi contract so it's available in the lightning network whenever a transaction happens their liquidity is being used. Therefore, they take a fee for the usage of this liquidity. And it allows them to earn 9.7% on the Bitcoin that is locked up, which is pretty crazy because I mean, what kind of instruments give you 9.7%. And in theory, this number can only grow over time if they keep on increasing the amount of transactions that happen on their notes and the amount of liquidity that they have through it. So I think it's just very interesting because rather than the strategic Bitcoin reserves where people just lock up Bitcoin on you know an onchain address well instead they can lock it up and give access to uh more liquidity on the lightning network and get a really nice yield along the way. Uh so I think that that was one of the most u mind-blowing facts that came out of the conference for me uh last week. No, I to I totally agree. And so on this chart, as you referenced, you know, it's the 9.7 for the routing node and then below that are Sky savings rate, which I believe is just a a high interest savings account um at 8.1, USDC on a at 4.2, which is D5 platform, uh federal funds rate 4.1, and then E staking below that. So yeah, it's pretty remarkable that this is outpacing other forms of yield importantly without any sort of, you know, lending or or rehypothecation. uh to generate that yield. Um so yeah, super fascinating. This reminds me a little bit of uh it's definitely not apples to apples, but if we were looking back at either like search uh like search with Google or like uh hosting services like via AWS in the sense that um this is only going to proliferate because there's a notion of like I don't even know how real because they've been working on this stuff for a while but like Amboss and whatever AI deal to help and route um but there's a notion of well that's going to compress and you know Square is just closest to the money and they route so they have it high but it's actually the opposite. It goes back to the whole Jebans paradox and like the more utility and use is going to drive more and like ultimately I think it comes back to this notion it's interesting that the square guys like do a lot of stuff but whoever's in that circle they also have like really bad takes because I think they're on the against sats versus like the bitcoin or whatever and it's like the notion of very few people are going to start to interact with bitcoins they're going to re interact with satoshi's and sats and this proliferation of lightning is going to help with that whether it's exchanges built on lightning or ecash or how we like peerto-peer via media advertising and sats are just going to be natural just how sense were but then this angle is everyone can potentially going back to the AWS or Google like anybody can become a rowdy node and can invest heavily there and start to like park capital especially if they're close to financial services and so that's just a point of like as we get more demand and interest for Bitcoin and lightning on other layers this is just going to actually grow and then that's where that kind of quotequote risk-free rate of turn comes in. Um, now nothing's risk-f free, right? People are going to blow up because they're going to just like mess up the the nodes and and infrastructure because that's possible. But it gets as close if you have reputable players setting up these channels that um can return a a rate of return. Yeah. And so what I think is interesting is how is is this at all actually going to apply to USDT on uh lightning and is it an opportunity for stable coin issuers to also increase their yield directly by providing liquidity for these USDT transactions on on lightning. Um I have no idea to be honest because again I don't have enough understanding on how exactly these banks are are being routed. Uh but that that I think would be pretty interesting to to see as well simply you know um the um the interest that could come for stable coin issuers to also provide more liquidity on the lightning network including in Bitcoin in order to be able to make sure that all these stable coin payments are as efficient as possible. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I'm assuming Lightning Labs has something because I like I know we're all we're kind of walking around in the dark here, but I I feel like Lightning Labs and the implementation around these nodes has described some some of like how because there's an implementation, right, that you would need to run um and then this where it ties into like what is your lightning node uh route outside of just Bitcoin and is it um you know, Tether, is it uh real world assets and what does that look like and then how are you incentivized? I think is you still need the adoption of that. Yeah. Well, all very fascinating. Were you going to go somewhere? No, I'm good. Okay. All right. Well, we uh a little over an hour here. Maybe a good good place to wrap. Uh where can people learn more about Flash, Pierre? Where where should uh people download the the beta wallet, etc.? Yeah. Uh so I mean the easiest place to learn more is on our website paywithflat.com. From there you can also access our wallet and join the beta testers. Um of course also follow us on Twitter. Uh you can find us also easily from from our website. In fact um I recommend following me as well cuz I talk a lot about the the stuff that we do. Um and generally speaking yeah we're pretty excited about what's coming at Flesh. Uh we're last week actually we were the payment processor for the Bitcoin Filmfest in uh in Warsaw. So we had a bunch of use cases where we're going to have quite a bit of content coming out uh regarding that um because our point of sale was used, our plugins were used, our store, it was just a lot a lot of stuff there. So we're pretty excited about it and uh yeah and a lot coming uh uh in the in the following weeks. Um of course invoicing tool for free. Um, we're going to have onchain payment support and our wallet uh fully released uh as well. So, yeah, pretty excited for pros coming in fresh. Beautiful. Yeah, I would encourage if anybody's individual or business that just wants to test it out or needs to accept Bitcoin and wants to spin up um an invoice. It's really robust tooling, easy to get set up. Um, so yeah, check it out. Yeah, and you can also just write to me directly, pierre.corbinpaywith.com Corbin paywith.com if you have feedback or need help getting started. Uh, happy to support everyone. Beautiful. Well, thanks for joining, Pierre. Always always fun to chat and uh, lots to look forward to. Thanks a lot, guys. All right. Thanks, J. Later. Hey, everyone. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of Final Settlement. We had an awesome episode with Pierre Corbin, co-founder and CEO of Flash. We touched on the Bitcoin 2025 conference uh some of the announcements that were made and then how they relate to his business flash and what they're seeing on the merchant and uh crossber payments flows. Quick word from on as you all may know uh we are the trusted bitcoin partner for bitcoin holders that are looking to secure generational wealth. I have it pulled up here if you're listening on the pod. Um an on-ramp dashboard basically showing some of the easy uh examples of how folks use us today whether it's seamless setting up inheritance for multiple beneficiaries or being able to buy and sell Bitcoin through the dashboard and then ultimately the multi-institution vault which is what underpins everything on again multi-institution multiple institutions that are regulated working on behalf of a client to protect their assets. Um the key concept here is that each institution works on behalf of the client, not on-ramp to move funds, requiring multiple permissions, including video verifications with multiple institutions. That all comes with a $100 million uh warranty uh insurance by Lloyds of London. If you'd like to learn more, I'd encourage you to schedule a consultation or reach out directly. We have some really interesting ways we're onboarding folks. And if you're just not ready for multi-institution custody, I would encourage you to check out on-ramptrade, which has no fees uh for trading until October. Again, that's onrampbitcoin.com. Look forward to speaking with you and hope you enjoy the show. Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the show. If you found the information valuable, please share the episode with a friend or leave a rating on your favorite podcast app. All the links we discussed in today's show will be in the show notes inside your podcast app. Before we finish, a quick reminder that Onra Media is forformational and entertainment purposes only and nothing should be construed as investment or legal advice. Regardless of where you are on your Bitcoin journey, we'd love to hear from you. Visit onrampbitcoin.com/cont to schedule a consultation with one of our private client adviserss.