Stablecoin Supercycle: The GENIUS Catalyst for Bitcoin’s Next Surge

What you're telling me is that music is about to stop and we're going to be left holding the biggest bag of odorous extra ever assembled in the history of business. 1974, 1987, '92, 97, 2000, whatever we want to call this, it's all just the same thing over and over. We can't help ourselves. I say when we sell. Hey, Muhammad. I say when we sell. This week we sat down with Steven Pollock from the Bitcoin Policy Institute. As you might guess, we talked a lot about policy, what's happening in DC, the federal level, the state level. Talked about the Genius Act as well, which passed the Senate this week, implications for stable coins on dollar dominance and also Bitcoin adoption. But then we went pretty deep on what is happening with the Bitcoin Policy Institute, what they're seeing on the ground, what they're advocating for, some of the challenges there, and ultimately it tied back into just how early we are with it with adoption. Uh we cited a stat about 3% adoption for Bitcoin in the world, maybe lower though depending on how you measure it. So it's incredibly early. We also talked about some of the uh things that happened in the Middle East this week with the largest crypto exchange and the believe it was one of the largest banks or perhaps the largest bank in Iran that uh was attacked. A cyber attack happened this week. And so we just talked about digital and physical security in the context of Bitcoin which ultimately ties into what we do here at On-Ramp. And so you can see here, check out our website onrampbitcoin.com. You can sign up in about 15 minutes, get access to multi-institution custody. You have seamless inheritance planning, financial services, support from the team, including you can see cam there in the bottom right. Or uh if you just want to learn more about what we do here and how it might be a good fit for you, you can always schedule a consultation here you see as well on the screen. So, hope you enjoyed the episode and maybe we'll see you next week in DC for the Bitcoin Policy Summit. All right, we're live. It's the last trade. We're recording Thursday, June 19th. We're here today with Brian Cabellis and Michael Tanguma from On-Ramp. And then we have a honorable special guest from the Bitcoin Policy Institute which will be hosting the Bitcoin Policy Summit next week. Steven Pollock, thank you for joining us. How are you doing? Doing well. Jackson, Michael, Brian, thanks for having me on. Uh it is a very busy week uh in BTI land with the summit uh next week. So I think I'm doing okay. Uh, I'll be doing really well once we, uh, you know, rip the band-aid off and start announcing speakers next Wednesday in DC. Yeah, we appreciate you carving out time. We know it's a busy time for everything going on. Uh, and you guys are doing special work there. So, appreciate you joining us this week. No, it's a it's an honor. Uh, I think it's important to I mean, we've got a lot to talk about just what's happening this week. I know you guys got some things you want to hit and and then I know you want to talk a little bit about the summit. So, there there is a ton going on. The world doesn't stop for the Bitcoin policy summit, unfortunately. So, uh, no, thanks for having me. Excited to excited to catch up and and cover some things. Excellent. And yeah, thank you, Stephen. Really appreciate you joining. So, what we do just real quick, uh, Michael sometimes gives me grief, but I do it I don't do it for Michael. I do it for the listeners of this show. We pull up the price just every week, get a baseline of where we're at. So, we're trading at about 104. We've actually, notably enough, we've been here for probably at this point over 40 days, over 100K, despite all of the volatility in markets and what's happening in the Middle East and just geopolitical tensions rising. And so, I think this is a remarkable thing just to call out, not to say that anyone on this show or people listening are necessarily short-term trading the asset. Maybe a few of you are, but we are long-term oriented here. And this is just, I think, a testament to how resilient the market is currently. curious if we have any thoughts before we talk about something very timely which will be stable coins uh because some big news just broke this week. Yeah, Stephen, just to just to call out real quick, the reason the reason why Jackson focuses on the price is because um he's been looking at look taking out leverage for a while and I've been trying to caution him against it and so he's seen this price fluctuate from 79 back to 110 and he's just trying to figure out if he leverages the house so he can move out into the BBS in Philadelphia for he's going to be stuck in the city for much longer. Yeah, that's smart. I'm glad you guys are talking about that. Uh, and you know, and now I know why you really brought me on was for some financial advice. Uh, no. So, I mean, Bitcoin has crashed all the way to 104,000, Jackson. So, it's a perfect time to go 100x max full send. Uh, do you see I mean, who was it? like shift or you know whoever uh everyone uh that's been you know been saying Bitcoin was going to die for however many you know 10 years they there was there was some like yeah now that Bitcoin's crashed to 104,000 which was the funniest sentence I've read in a very long time. Yeah, people people love their premature victory laps in the sort of immediate aftermath of some of these geopolitical global shocks and uh but it is fascinating, right? Like I think if we reround the clock a few years, even 12 months ago, I think you would have expected Bitcoin to sell off much harder um in the wake of um you know, boiling tensions in the Middle East than it than it has this time around. Um, yeah, in all seriousness, yes. Like it's I think it's an incredible feat that Bitcoin's maintained like six figure status through not just, you know, through everything that's happened the last couple months and then specifically Yeah, the last couple weeks with but maybe Bitcoiners have finally gotten better about fading uh geopolitical risk. you know, I like normally uh you know, something happens even the you know, you get a whiff of war or potential war and everything's going down and Bitcoin's showing resilience and I think it's smart to fade that risk usually. Usually things are either never nearly as bad as they're made out to be or as good as they're made out to be. So when things, you know, and we're kind of in the as bad as they're made out to be, hopefully we're right to fade the risk. I hope hopefully this isn't something that in you know we're listening to in 3 weeks and you're like man wish you wouldn't have said that but uh we'll find out soon enough. I'm I'm not taking any leverage by the way. I'm not sophisticated enough. I'm good with my spot exposure. Um it's actually real real quick before transitioning. It is a good thought that maybe that's embedded in we've seen Bitcoin uh and the the the volatility when real geopolitical risk comes on. I think previous to the tariffs there was another there was something else that happened. There's been no shortage but the most notable but the tariffs were real. Um there was real uncertainty in the markets and that's where we saw a lot of that u dipping into 78. I think maybe that's maybe a component of this is that what's happening isn't as big as what the market would try to get you to perceive. and uh your friend and colleague who was recently on uh Matthew Pines had a a tweet I think last night was said shortly after this Iranian brewhaha concludes I suspect attention will turn as it periodically does to Xi and the silent coupe rumors uh you know and Matt Matt's a sharp dude so maybe he kind of is that's his way of saying there's you know this is just a short blip and Bitcoin's price is reflecting that I don't think we've talked about that before that's come up that's an interesting angle yeah I think whatever Matthew Pine said, uh, you can you can just take that to the bank. And I I won't have anything to add or detract from that. Learned that. I've learned that over the years. I've known Matt a long time. Uh, he was our first fellow uh at Bitcoin Policy Institute. I've been here a few a few years now. And I think he actually wrote the first white paper for BPI. So he other than David and Grant who like started and launched BPI, Matt is has been there as long as anyone else uh writing papers. And so now obviously um or not obviously to to some people who don't follow us closely or obsess over all the details but like he's now our executive director. We just announced that a few months ago and uh I mean we couldn't have made a better choice. We're uh spoiled rotten to have him and he's yeah he's one of the sharpest uh individuals I've met in a long time and so whatever Matt says goes. Uh TLDDR whatever Matt says I I generally think even if I don't uh agree with it I will and and act accordingly. Totally agree. He's easily one of the highest signal folks in the space. And uh it's great to say that because then you get to talk about UAPs and and then kind of counterbalances because then people will uh naturally have it hold some validity when bringing it up that he's uh very very gets in the weeds there. Yeah. Matt's one of the few people can talk about aliens and people start taking him more seriously. Right. Correct. Uh, every everybody else I know, if you start if you start bringing up aliens or UAPs, you start kind of talking about that, uh, suddenly people are just like not listening to you at all. If I if I started talking about aliens right now, everybody would just turn off the podcast. But when Matt talks about it, everybody's like, "Oh, yeah. Yeah, I'm taking this seriously now, too, which is great. Uh, glad we have him. We do have a lot of alien talk to get through uh toward the end of this podcast." So, I just want people to be aware about that, so they stick around until the end of the show. But, um, alien talk One thing I I did want to talk about, especially since Stephen's on today, let's talk about some policy. One thing that happened this week that is going to be incredibly important for not only Bitcoin, but really, I would say this country and certainly the dollar, and that's why there's so much embedded interest in it these days, is the Genius Act, which is the stable coin bill, passed the Senate uh by a wide margin this week. And so I want to go through a couple things here and then I want to get reaction. So this is Alex Thorne from Galaxy. We had him on recently. He actually did say something I think is incredibly true about the way to think about the Genius Act is it's a dollar bill. It's not a crypto bill. It's and people in Washington, they recognize that and that's ultimately why there was such widespread approval for it. It's going to support dollar dominance. In a world where trust in the US Treasury market, trust in the dollar is decaying. Unfortunately, people are going to be forced to take their medicine. they're going to have to be uh you know buying into stable coins to access dollar liquidity. That's where this all goes. Um I want to bring this up as well. Just a funny post from Donald Trump on Truth Social where we're talking about an incredible bill uh which ultimately will make America the undisputed leader in digital assets. It's pure genius, he says. So I always just like to bring up the Donnie, but more importantly, we have some more uh more balanced takes here from the Treasury Secretary. So reactions to the bill here. He uh Bessant mentions that stable coins could grow into a $3.7 trillion market by the end of the decade. And this scenario becomes more likely with the passage of the Genius Act. So he says that a thriving stable coin ecosystem will drive demand for from the private sector for US treasuries which back stable coins. This newfound demand could lower government borrowing costs and help reign in national debt. It could also onramp millions of new users across the globe to the dollar-based digital asset economy. Also, you can see these hyphens here. I think this was chat GBT generated, but we all use it. There's no shame in that. And then finally here, and then I want to get the group's reactions. We don't have to play the clip, but it was interesting. He uh mentions uh this is still the Treasury Secretary mentions a a book that was published this year called King Dollar. And I forget who authored it, but it was someone who's been uh adjacent to the Treasury for about 40 years and talks about how every time there's a lot of narratives about the end of the dollar, you know, the dollar is done, etc., there's always a new narrative. There's always a new shift in the market structure that extends dollar dominance. And so, Vesson talks about how stable coins is ultimately going to be the tool to extend dollar dominance and get US treasuries in the hands of more people. So, big news here. Maybe Stephen, I'll I'll toss it over to you first. Is our uh guest of the week, just initial reactions to the Genius Act passing the Senate. Yeah, I think uh well, first of all, I know Senator Bill Hagerty and his team have been working on this a long time, and I'm I'm a Tennessee guy. He's one of my senators here along with uh Senator Blackburn. And uh and so, you know, shout out to them. they've pushed and pushed on this and has to feel good to get this across the finish line there in the Senate. Um, great great guy, great team. Uh, and you don't get things like this done without I mean, you can be the most incredible, you know, senator since, you know, whoever. Uh, and but without a good team around you, you just you just don't get these kinds of things done. And I think what's really really um stands out to me um is the vote uh count 68 to 30 with quite a few Democrats uh voting in favor. I think that's I think that's uh pretty bullish for not just this but like sort of the some of the other priorities um for the administration and then specifically for uh for Bitcoin and digital assets. So that's what I'm seeing and I think that's I think it's fantastic. Glad it passed. uh hasn't been like a major f focal point for BPI for obvious reasons, but we you know it's I'm glad it glad glad they got it done and I think you know kind of what it signals is is also really important. Yeah, 100%. I think it's it's a signal at least for one that they're serious about this stuff and I think there was always an order of operations to you know how Senator Alumnus has talked about this that the stable coin bill would come first. Um, and so now there's been real follow-through on that. And even Trump's tweet being like, you know, no delays on this, get this to my desk ASAP. I'm ready to sign it. Um, is all super constructive. Um, I think, you know, something that we've talked about a bit in the past and and Michael and I have sort of been thinking about is like I think you can get tripped up by thinking like this is not good for Bitcoin in the sense that you know if you're extending dollar dominance um you know that sort of impinges perhaps uh Bitcoin's adoption particularly in the medium of exchange realm. Um, but I think that's missing the larger picture of general normalization of digital monies and crypto rails that is now about to proliferate in a in a real way. Um, and so I think it's it's insanely bullish for Bitcoin because um, you know, we are as a as a country, as a as an administration leaning in heavily to cryptonative dollars. And what that what the second order effect of that is is that Bitcoin becomes a natural extension of someone's understanding of this this sort of new realm of of how money operates and it'll become commonplace. The frictions will be reduced to effectively spend in dollars and save in Bitcoin. And and I kind of think that's where this is all headed and this is a a really first, you know, important first step in in terms of normalizing that sort of ideology or line of thinking. Yeah, I think I think like there's nothing really new under the sun. You know, we know history repeats itself, but also in the crypto cycles, like you could probably go back to 9 to 12 or 13 and 13 to 17, 17 to 21, 21 to 25. like they're naturally when you hear about um like the Bitcoin individual talk about the having cycles and having cycles the way I look at them is accelerated business cycles because you ultimately don't have anybody like animal spirits come in because it's a free market and then liquidity um things delever and you kind of wash out the bad actors and we saw FTX Celsius BlockFi point in sharing that is it's similar to I had this acknowledgement or realization a few months ago when I don't know what it was, whether it was BENT or somebody realizing like this bill was going to happen at some point and it was going to be insanely bullish for BTC and also just for the recognition of what Brian was alluding to is digital money because this is how Tether has operated. This was the main reason for Tether and um the trading pair with Tether and BTC. But then also how Circle and before it was called Circle, I forgot the consortium um that was built on was around FX trading for BTC to dollars and really uh net settling capital accounts after hours and on weekends because the banking system didn't. If you're going to provide um tight spreads, you need to be able to settle those assets. obviously super microscopic example, but in the same way FTX is going to be microscopic versus what's going to happen with these treasury companies and whatever else is going to come down, at least from my point of view, because we've already seen these things. We've seen what happens with centralization. We've seen what happens with counterparty risk. Um, and so similar, we've seen what happens when you inject a little bit of, you know, uh, digital dollars into the Bitcoin ecosystem and how that supports Bitcoin's price. And so to Brian's point like now we see you know part of that bill is interesting about uh fintex and other companies within certain you know u regulatory you know frame work they can actually launch stable coins and so we saw Walmart Amazon and other firms come to to the table that they're working on this stuff and so the notion that every bank and every checking account and every wallet um you on board to is going to have you know US dollar that can be converted to BTC I don't see how like Jackson was looking for a million dollar call from Brian so he could have a big thing to push. I don't see how we don't get to these like crazy prices if all this stuff comes to fruition in the next 20 24 months because it just normalizes that there's a digital form of money and Bitcoin's right next to that after you get your dollars. So what's the price target then? No, I'm just kidding. Uh I I I'm curious like anyone in the group how I should think about and how people should think about just stable coins as it relates to the financial services companies stepping in. Like you think about banks uh and Wall Street stepping into stable coin markets versus technology companies. We don't need to spend a ton of time on it, but like just an interesting uh interesting development. We'll see, you know, Fortune 500 companies of all shapes and sizes, I guess, look to launch stable coins. So, how do I think about that? It's a good It's a good question because this is something I've sort of wrestled with around stable coins for a while is like, well, you don't need like dozens or hundreds of different stable coin issuers. Like, I I don't see a world where, you know, you have your Amazon stable coin, you have your bank stable coin. Like, I do think that, you know, there will be sort of win or take most over time with these things. Where I think it gets really interesting is like, okay, well, how does that occur? How does that play out? How do these issuers actually differentiate between each other? And I think where it ultimately ends up going is like you have to offer some sort of yield or return on holding the stable coin. So like right now, Tether just takes all of that yield for themselves, buys Bitcoin, buys gold, etc. They're not passing any of that along to the actual holders of the stable coins. So I think that's a natural progression of this is you're going to see people have to differentiate to out compete each other and offering you know some form of yield whether that's just from the treasuries backing them themselves or it's partially backed by Bitcoin and then you're passing along some you know portion of the appreciation of Bitcoin in your reserves. Um, that's the really interesting thing to me that I think is an open question of how this evolves because I I I don't see a world where there's, you know, hundred different stable coins and none of them are doing anything different. Yeah. I mean, I I align there. I think like the the more macro theme is we go back to free banking. Um, and free banking is the maybe it's not exact free banking, but it's basically reputation based. So, in a world where Amazon's effectively going to be a bank because they can naturally issue these stable coins and to to Brian's point, they will not only have feature sets because they have a large customer base, but then what do they provide whether it's discounts or a creative, you know, passing back whatever yield or however they're backing it. We had this conversation over like maybe a year and a half ago with Joel Rebel when uh Wyoming was talking about announcing their sovereign stable coin and backed by kind of, you know, assets based in the state of Wyoming. And we kind of worked through in real time how this was the natural progression of all stable coins are going to have to back with the most credible asset which is BT BTC. And then it was interesting because safe had a similar talk you know at this past conference referencing it's just a logical progression that tether they're already doing this with gold land and treasuries backing their stable coin because that's what's implied right if the the stable ever deep pegs you're naturally going to have these other assets for the credible to make people whole. And so that's where I think this all goes is just free banking and then you'll have interoperable dollars but then people have certain affiliations affinity via brand recognition to start because everyone knows who JP Morgan is but as um volatility inserts into the system then you're naturally going to start to have reputation based on who you want your dollars to be parked with. One thing we didn't touch on here is while stable coins are going to be great, it's also going to actually accelerate this notion of bank runs and movement of capital and there's going to be increased volatility because now money can move a lot freer. Um, and I don't think people are prepared for that, including the people that are passing these bills because you can't actually prepare. I mean, we all know what happened with SVB and that would they, you know, put a product of that is because of digital flows in in a banking era that's online. Well, what happens when you can move it at 3:00 a.m.? Uh, there's a big problem there. Yeah, with with uh bills like this or you know guidance or any sort of there's there's a I don't know if it's a motto, but the way I think about it is like you have regulation or deregulation. Uh but I call it regulation because you're just saying what the rules are, you know, and if it's a deregulation, you're just, you know, there's less rules, you're just restating the rules. So regulation and and you so you get regulatory clarity, you get regulation, then you have uh proliferation. So then everybody jumps in the market uh and everybody tries to do it and then you have consolidation and so you have your regulation, you have your proliferation, you have your consolidation and I think we're going to see that. I don't know how many years it takes for that to play out. I don't think it's going to be like uh consolidation in the sense of like what we've seen in some of the things you mentioned bank runs and or hopefully not uh you know sort of banks collapsing and um you know rugpulls like we saw in the whole DeFi mess a couple years ago and so but I think we're going to see lots of people try lots of different things to get really creative kind of like you know we're seeing now different Fortune 500 companies sort of floating the idea that they might be doing something looking at their competitors, seeing if it's worth it. Um, and then some of them are going to probably regret that or they're not going to, you know, you're going to see other people do it better. I think it's going to slowly kind of come back together. Not to like a single currency or anything like that, but those are going to be definitely going to be a number of winners and losers in the sense of um you know, and I think what you said like the Bitcoin backed type of stables or if there's any sort of uh you know, way to kind of L2 to it that could be interesting. I think it's going to I think if you don't do that, you probably wish you had. Yeah. Just speaking of all these different uh you know threat factors and I guess risk to consider. Stephen and Michael you both mentioned bank runs. Something that happened this week uh in Iran was both the largest crypto exchange there was hacked. They had hot wallets that were hacked and nearly 100 million was drained uh from those hot wallets and then I guess just burned. And then also I think it was the largest bank as well. There was a cyber attack that took place this week. And so I'm curious just like general thoughts on the dig the evolving digital threat landscape. like we're obviously in this very tumultuous time um you know from a very macro level with tensions seemingly rising every day or at least fluctuating back and forth and there's just a lot of uncertainty in the market and and things are evolving to um you know financial warfare and so I think a lot of what we need to think about in this space and it could certainly tie into policy is just how to ensure that there are adequate protections around Bitcoin custody infrastructure and how people should be thinking about these concerns. I mean, there's also something else we want to talk about that I believe we hit record on a massive data breach. So, there's a lot of different directions we could go in, but this is going to be um incredibly important for people to think about as we go forward because, of course, Bitcoin's at 100K and it's a beautiful thing to be able to protect your wealth in something so scarce, finite, and um the flip side of that, of course, is that it's becoming increasingly valuable and Bitcoin is going to become uh if not it already is a asset that a lot of malicious actors are going to be coming after. And then of course you have to think about the al the traditional financial system in that context as well. So curious just like between the the few pieces of news that I cited this week if there's any reactions there or or thoughts you want to share. We we talked about this I'll be brief. We talked about this earlier because we had a a pod with Brahman. I think it goes to the notion of um just like custody in general and how the traditional financial institutions aren't necessarily prepared for Bitcoin custody because the way that they traditionally have done it is via omnibus structures and so you're housing a pulled amount of assets and you have a ledger and a database and while the assets are secure and you can know where the Bitcoin is via you know the blockchain and the UTXO set you don't actually necessarily you don't have a bulletproof version of unless you keep them offline records whose Bitcoin tracks to whose ownership. And so this kind of like been thinking about it more and more, but the Iranian situation, there was multiple. One was the banking system um was supposedly uh hacked, but then we brought this up like well what if they just said, you know, their accounts were wiped out or they couldn't access it. But like what happened in the world where somebody says they were hacked and there they weren't. like how do you prove that it was you know Iran that was hacked by external partners versus they do you know their balance sheet was off sides and they couldn't make whole so what a convenient way to say and you get you know made pennies on the dollar or whatever. So, that's just one angle on the banking side, but then on the the crypto side, there was an exchange that was hacked and they burned the Bitcoin or whatever crypto assets. But point being is um there's going to be other ways like obviously what we do with multi-institution custody. there's we don't talk about it enough but that there's three independent custodians that are uh effectively um attesting to the providence of the Bitcoin because again it's just still it's nerdy and early but it's never been done where you have an address on chain and you can basically have three independent regulated custodians say that BTC belongs to that person because they've all gone through the onboarding process and the point where that's valuable is because not only is the record there but via multiple jurisdictions but also could be multiple jurisdictions um it's not an omnibus, so it's directly tied to that person. But if something bad happens to one entity and they get wiped out completely, EMP or whatever you want to like make up, the assets are still going to be a track record. Um which that just historically wouldn't be there in an omnibus fashion depending on the construct. So there just going to be a lot of things I think through the digital age that I don't think we thought and that's outside of just all the um data leaks that are coming and then the realization that physical attacks are increasing because most people don't realize people are holding 500k in their house and when they do uh it's going to be a very bad day. Yeah. I I the only other thing that's very well articulated but the where my mind mind goes with this is sort of higher level more bird's eye like what is the you know while these types of events are very unfortunate for the individuals and the citizens involved like if there's any silver lining like it is in my mind a very important catalyst for education and learning like these events speak directly to why Bitcoin exists um the ability to have uh you know decentraliz ized ownership, better property rights, greater assurances over your ownership is, you know, speaks directly to the value prop and merit of Bitcoin. And so it's it's sort of akin to like, you know, when the Canadian truckers happened a few years ago, like that was a big wakeup call for people and it educated a lot of people on the merits of Bitcoin. And so while they're unfortunate in the moment, like I I do think that it's kind of just the necessary pain to to help educate and catalyze education on why Bitcoin exists. Yeah, I I think where where my mind goes, I mean that's a you know kind of kicking that off that's a between you know data breach like privacy um the kind of bite of the elephant I think that we're focused on right now and I think you'll see uh next week we kind of talked about what what BPI is working on next week one of our major focuses is on this uh clarity act uh which is sort of this market structure bill And uh another another focus and it's kind of part and parcel of that that we've been working on for over a year uh is the P2P rights fund P2P rights campaign. So peer-to-p peer rights uh privacy tools uh not non-custodial developers uh self-custody. I think it this when when these things sort of you know bubble up to the surface of the public consciousness when you see whatever it was uh 60 billion people or whatever uh that got it's not funny it's just so ridiculous uh 16 billion uh sorry only 16 uh billion uh people had their data leaked. Uh this is sort of top of mind. It's an opportunity to to highlight something that uh a lot of times when when I'm talking with someone who doesn't, you know, isn't super familiar with Bitcoin or quite understand the rationale behind why it's so valuable or why it's important. Um you talk about like self-custody and they're like, "Okay, whatever." you know, uh, self- custody hasn't really isn't really something at least US citizens have been that concerned about or felt that they needed to be that concerned about. Uh, but when you look at you start seeing leaks and things and it's like, oh, that's your personal information. Suddenly it it it sort of sort of makes sense. A lot of times I've had to share stories or kind of make up scenarios for people in third world countries and it's like, oh, that clicks. people understand why uh self-custody is important when you're, you know, in Afghanistan or whatever, right? Uh whenever you're in Iran right now and your regime's being overthrown and there's all this like turmoil. Uh and I think when they see these type of headlines, they understand uh they start to understand it a little, internalize it a little more versus just, you know, it's like 3 seconds and I'm moving on to what I'm having for dinner tonight and I'm not that worried about it. Everything's going to be fine. So when we look at and we're doing a lot we're focused on the so the BRCA uh BRCA language uh that that was really important has now been incorporated into the clarity act and so clarity acts what we're focusing on we're going to be talking about a lot at the summit and this protects or you know stops the bank secrecy act from applying to non-custodial developers noncustodial tools protect self custody so uh I think that's how that's what I see I'm like man we have to get this done. Um, and uh, it's more important than ever uh, to be able to to allow, you know, free individuals to access these type of tools, freedom tools. Um, so that's my that's my bite at the Apple. I'm curious um from your vantage, is there similar um bipartisan support for the stuff that you just referenced in the Clarity Act, you know, relative to what we saw with the stablecoin bill where I think it was pretty easy to get people on board for, as we said, like this is a dollar bill, not really a crypto bill. Do you see similar support or is there more uh dissident on that side? I hope so. Uh I I really do. I think uh there's an article kind of came out uh earlier this week that you know not all Democrats hate uh digital assets uh like you're kind of taught to think or told to think. I think there's a lot of centrist Democrats that are that are friendlier than it than it seems. And again, that's why I'm bullish on the Genius Act passing like it did. It think kind of signals like, hey, maybe there's maybe more allies here you would otherwise think. Uh so I think, you know, I don't think it's a long shot to pass clarity. I think I think I think we get it done. Uh there's not a slam dunk by any stretch. And uh you know, I think if you look at you look at our agenda for next week at the summit, you'd be surprised to see it's not just Republicans who are speaking at a Bitcoin policy summit. So again, um I think we do I think we do well to and this, you know, BPI, we're a we're a 501c3. We're nonprofit. So in our charters, we're we're nonpartisan. And uh I think we've always maintained that we will work with anyone who's willing to work with us. I don't care who you are or you know what you said a month ago if you're like oh no you know what I want to work we we have uh we have short short memories and we'll work with everybody uh because it the stakes are too high to for us to or for anyone I think to play games you know. Hey, you know, I didn't understand there were there was a time not that long ago, you know, a few years ago that I didn't understand anything about Bitcoin either, you know, and uh and so I think we're I think as an industry we do well to remain arms open and embrace both sides at as often as as we possibly can. And I think that's what we're seeing, man. I think that's one thing Bitcoiners are great about. um you know, kind of the heart and soul of it is is uh welcoming people in and helping educate, get them up to speed, help them understand, being patient, and uh that's and I I'll take it, you know, one step further. We have a um we haven't done this before, but uh I don't mean to go on and on about the summit, but it's a good time to mention this. I had made a note because I'm really proud of it. Um, it's not something we've done, but we did a day two this year for the summit. So, the summit's on Wednesday, day two's on Thursday. and we stood up a day on the hill which I don't know if you guys have ever been on a day on the hill or heard of a day on the hill but it's sort of this industry play where you know if you're a trade association or whatever which we're not uh you or a lobbying group you bring your clients in or you bring you know uh a bunch of construction workers in or whatever whatever your industry is and you take them to Capitol Hill you walk around the halls you meet greet greet meet and greet you know staffers and elected officials And we've never done that um just for a few reasons. Uh but we felt like it was the time was right. Ken Agan who's our government affairs director helped stand this up and man we have sold out. Uh we have so many Bitcoin not just coming to DC but staying for a second day and then going on the Capitol Hill and meeting some of them they're elected officials some of them they just want to kind of like you know meet generally with staffers and talk about Bitcoin. I think of any industry of any uh of any trade group if you're just bringing like people who don't do this every day I I have I would bet on Bitcoiners to be able to bridge the gap. um whether it's people who uh staffers who maybe kind of understand a little bit, want to know more, people are maybe a little hostile. I trust the Bitcoin crew. I think we have like almost 200 people going to Capitol Hill next Thursday. And uh and so I'm super excited to hear what comes of that. And I think, you know, I think we're seeing like I think if I did this two years ago and we said, "Let's do a day on the hill." I don't know if anybody would came. They'd be like, "Why? What do we do? You know, what do we do up here?" And now I think it's starting to get it. Bitcoiners are getting it. They're like, "No, we're showing up. we want to do it. Let's go. Yeah. So, really really excited about it. No, it's it's well said and I think that that's something that um doesn't get talked about or is underappreciated enough is the economic weight as Bitcoin grows to execute on what you just described because, you know, not a student of this, but you go back to choke point 1.0 you know, with gambling sites and um other kind of like elicit or quote unquote elicit um services that were cut off and you go back to even like firearms and some of the unconstitutional ways that you have to register and manage that aren't necessarily and I know like the um what is the big um group for not the I guess the NRA like there's a there's a lot of like push and pull but historically it all goes into one direction which is centralization of control but and it's still early in this game but It's trending in the direction of positive what Stephen's saying because historically you didn't have the unit growing in purchasing power and starting to embed itself in different politicians pockets but also the people that are fighting for these things that are actually getting wealthier and able to affect their or express their version of the the future and how they want. And it's really this whole like every time we look at Bitcoin it just gets crazier and crazier the amount of uh alignment of incentives. And I think that's what Steven's referencing specifically around 2 years ago while Bitcoin's price was, you know, 50% less or whatever. So you don't just have the economic weight and coordination that you can from the highest levels to the president all the way down to individuals. And so that's that notion of I think where a lot of people feel the inevitability because as long as Bitcoin's successful, you're going to naturally be able to do that. The last thing that that serves is that's kind of the meta angle of uh everyone gets Bitcoin at the price they deserve because it's this notion that like the people that were meant to see her adopt Bitcoin at the time were the people that were going to affect the change and then it's kind of like the Senator Warren that are the last people to see it. It's like yeah, you kind of don't want her to have really much control in the future. So like it was always that take and I think that's the subcontext of a lot of these memes that are really expressed have a lot of validity to them. So anyway, I think that that what we're seeing is just kind of playing out and if we're here today at 100K, it's just crazy. What is it going to be at 250K, 500 million dollars and the amount of change we're going to see in the world? Well, right and I think uh sorry, I'll let one of you guys hop in on your on your podcast here soon, but I you said economic weight and uh and that you know brought this to mind. I think I'm sure Matt probably brought this up when he was on. Um, but do you guys talk about the sort of like gold versus Bitcoin US holdings? Did he hit that the other day? Uh, you know, US holds roughly of gold supply like around 10% of total gold supply. United States holds between like individuals, companies, and government around 40% of Bitcoin. And so you're looking at $2 trillion asset 40% of its domestic you know either in somebody's hands uh inside these walls uh you know inside these inside the borders the United States that economic weight and then when you begin to like you said project that out uh over what's this going to be in two years and 5 years uh you know not just the market cap but the percentage of the economy market cap you know it's hard to know like you say it's a 10 trillion dollar asset but you know what's happened with inflation in those 10 20 years. Uh but the percentage of wealth and the the the demographic uh of Bitcoin owners and suddenly you realize how they're like, "Yeah, okay. We need to we need to get we need to interact with these guys. We want to hear um what this industry has to say. We want to start kind of listening." And it's when you hear uh JD Vance, Vice President Vance at the Bitcoin conference in Las Vegas get up there. One of his main points was, "We need to not try to be this bureaucracy telling you guys what to do. The second most powerful man in the world on track to be the most powerful man in the world." Like, he's got, last I checked, he was like plus 250 odds to be the next president. Next closest was plus 2,000. So, you know, one in three odds. This is the, you know, uh, number two guy for four years, number one guy probably for eight years. So 12 years, you know, top poo said, "We want to listen to you. We want to know what you think. We want to hear. And I think we need to do a better job of that." And uh I don't think uh I' I've made this point a lot. So uh the last week, but like this is not a campaign speech either. This isn't a guy who's like trying to drum up some votes, trying to get some, you know, donations. He's not running for office. He's good. You know, he's not in the midterm. He's getting elected in the midterms. He's good. Now, he's got a presidential uh campaign coming up, but like he's saying he really means it. You know, there's policy reasons, not campaign reasons that he's saying some of these things. So, I it's and just to be clear, Stephen's refer reference referencing like future potential uh nominees or bids to be president. Not saying something's going to happen to Trump and uh Vance would be coming in because there are some conspiracy theorists four years from now. No, I'm saying I'm saying that's why I said 12 years or whatever. Yeah. All right. Yeah, I uh I'm like there's no telling what I just said on accident. So, thanks for telling me. Yeah, I think it'll be I think it'll be I think it's I think it's one of the coolest things I've I I heard was him was him speaking. Trump speaking last year was awesome. But that's a guy campaigning for president. He's not it wasn't the president and this is the actual vice president. I think sometimes we get those people have been like, you know, it wasn't Trump, but you know, JD did pretty good. Like, no, this is a complete paradigm shift. It was wild. And you you were too humble to admit that he mentioned the Bitcoin Policy Institute as well in that speech. I forgot about that. Sure. Um, well, you know, a lot of what you said resonates with me because I I was thinking about that the week of the conference, the fact that it I think it was in Vance's speech where he cites 50 million Americans own crypto or Bitcoin, however he phrased it, but then we talked about it before, might have been a recurring theme of the show where sure 50 million people have maybe a Coinbase account or a Kraken account, whatever, and they have $100 of Doge Bushcoin and $200 of Bitcoin. But when you really drill down, it's a very small contingent of people who have a material allocation to Bitcoin and have a deep understanding of the technology and of the asset. And so that even puts it into more perspective. The fact that you do have the sitting vice president going to an industry conference to address a crowd of 35,000 people and then maybe it's streamed out, you know, a couple hundred thousand over YouTube and socials, but we're incredibly early, right? Just to put that in perspective, we have the incentives aligning from the highest powers, from the most from the most influential people in the world that are now coalesing around Bitcoin. And in large part, I think Stephen, it does tie into the stat you mentioned about 40% of the wealth or industry, however I want to think about it or we think about it, of Bitcoin sits within the United States. And I I don't know. I don't I don't know every single industry enough to say if there are any others where there's that much concentration within the borders of the United States, but my gut instinct is there's not. And so I'm really curious. You know, we talked a little bit about just the support as a whole, but I would love to hear in a little more detail the conversations that are happening now in DC at the federal level, at the state level, and as politicians and other stakeholders really come to terms with the amount of influence and the amount of um wealth and technology that exists within the United States for Bitcoin specifically and why and how, what, you know, what's going on behind the scenes now that is going to keep the United States as the leader. Yeah. Well, let me I'll I'm going to answer your question a few different ways, but one and and this is something I've actually said before, but as you were saying, I kind of combined a few a few thoughts. Uh if I'm a politician and uh either just trying to do a good job, which I think there are a lot of those that are like, "Hey, I'm here. It's uh it's sort of uh um public service, you know. I don't know if I'm the best person for the job. I'm one of the best, but I'm I'm the one in the job and I'm going to I want to do well by my constituents. I I genuinely believe that that there are many politicians that that's the way they operate. I know not everybody will agree with that assessment, but I've worked with a lot of them over the years. And uh but whether it's that or whether it's uh sort of the and I always I always do this because and there's so many different people who listen and kind of see it different ways and I don't think it matters. Uh if it's if you're a little more cynical about it, right, and you're like, "Ah, I just think they're in it for the you know, whatever." uh the money or the power or the whatever. Um I don't think it matters. I think if you're if I'm a politician and I'm looking and I say, you know, uh there's 50 million people using digital that have digital assets in America. And I think you raised the point like, well, most of them like what a couple hundred bucks. Uh I got a little bit on Robin Hood or whatever the case is and they dabbled. They probably got rugged a couple times. You know, they're buying they bought a little Bitcoin. They got $100 in Bitcoin in case, you know, would have, you know, they got a little bit of Doge, whatever. Um, we rewind to the 90s. I think probably there were people on a podcast similar to this. I don't know if they had podcasts. They didn't have podcast back. They're on a whatever uh little uh public forum uh and um and meeting and uh and talking about the internet, right? and maybe a chat room, one of the first first gen chat rooms, but they're like, "Hey, you know, however many million people or maybe it was the late '9s by that point. How many million people? There's x million people that have internet access in the United States." And people like us from the Internet Policy Institute are probably like, "Yeah, but like come on, man. Like only a million of those people really even know what the internet is and really use on a daily basis." You can say that millions and millions of people have internet access, but like they don't even, you know, they don't barely even know how to turn on a computer. And I think we're in a similar spot. I think you guys think that too. Uh yeah, these people only have a little bit now and they only dabbled in it now, but you what do you what do you do before you become a daily user of like the internet? You have it. I remember the reason I brought up chat rooms is and this came to mind. I remember the first time I used the internet. Uh, I had an uncle, him and I were both like really into dirt bikes. I was young, you know, and he, you know, he got me into dirt bikes and like talking about dirt bikes and super fun. And he was over at my house and he was kind of the tech guy of our family tree. He was like, "Check this out." You know, and he plugged in, you know, plugged our phone into a computer, plugged our phone line into a computer and dialed up and he was like, "Does anybody like dirt bikes?" I was like in this AOL chat room and all these people like, "I like dirt bikes." and everybody's talking about dirt bikes and he moved the computer like this and it cut the internet off and we lost it. He was like damn, you know, and every time we would just barely move the computer it was like cutting the internet off and we would have to start over and find more dirt bike people and I just remember thinking like this is really cool but is this it? Is this like the whole everybody would talk about this internet thing? Like come on. Like I thought it'd be it was a little anticlimatic and I think that's how people experience Bitcoin right right now. They're like, man, all these other things are, you know, going way up and down. There's all this volatility and Bitcoin's got a little boring. It's six figures, you know, it goes from 114 to 104. Nobody cares. Uh, and but I think when those 50 million people turn into like legitimate users, which is going to be super fast, I think politicians are looking at that and they're like, "Oh my god, this is about to get insane." And if you have 25 50 million serious users, I mean, you're it's unstoppable. It's over. And so, we better prepare for that title wave to hit. We got to think through it from a policy standpoint, from a political standpoint. Both parties are having this come to Jesus moment. I think that's what you're seeing on the Democratic side, too. They're like, "What are you talking about? We're anti-digital assets. That's like saying you're anti- internet. What are you how we This is not a We have no leg to stand on. this is this is actually irresponsible from a from a platform standpoint. So I think that's why we're seeing some of the migration, some of the you know kind of a bipartisan uh support on some of these bills. Hope you're enjoying the episode. Just a quick break. Would really appreciate if you could hit the like button, the subscribe, leave a comment if you're on YouTube. Um but yeah, a fivestar rating on Spotify, Apple. All this really goes a long way to support the show. We spend a lot of time to prepare for it, book guests, have the conversations, edit them, and so if you could show your appreciation, just hit the like button, leave a comment, leave a fivestar review. Really goes a long way. We appreciate it. And if you haven't checked it out already, would also point you to our website where you can subscribe to our weekly research newsletter. So you'll get information on what's happening in the Bitcoin markets, macro, uh you'll get podcasts that you might have missed as well, deep dive reports, white papers, just a great way to stay up to date with everything that's happening in our business and also how we're viewing the investable landscape for Bitcoin and the broader macro picture. Hope you enjoyed the rest of the episode. Yeah, I I love a lot of the analogies you made there and thank you for pioneering the chat room. So then by the time I was in elementary school, I was able to easily communicate with my classmates. Uh forget which one it was at this point, but this reminds me of a chart that um River uh put out this week. I think it's just a I mean it may be redundant for us and for some people, but it also is important to put in perspective because I know there's people that listen to the show. I know that this will be distributed in other places and they look at the price of Bitcoin and they think immediately I miss it, right? And then they go down the shitcoin rabbit hole because everything is so cheap and the market caps are small and oh I'm going to you know I'm going to 100x my position and then sell and buy a Lambo and I don't have to work for Michael anymore. But that's not how it works. You we're actually incredibly early and you have 3% adoption of Bitcoin. And when I think about these other things here for reference, online banking in 1996 or social media in 2005 or the internet in 1990, I would have to imagine like social media in 2005. There were very few proponents of it who understood how fundamentally that would change traditional media, how people would communicate more online than they do in person. online banking may be even a better parallel because everyone used to bank in person and that's really sensitive information right and people are you know they like to keep their finances close to them still even to this day some people don't want to bank online they prefer to go into a branch and now you have Bitcoin it's an even more radical proposition in the sense that you're we're putting our what we perceive to be physical dollars but they're digital dollars right into a new form of money that didn't exist like 17 years ago. And so that is probably the biggest inertia to overcome out of any one of these. And and still to this day, we're only at 3% adoption, you know, 15 years later. Yeah, I think that ties into the Bank of America uh analyst report that came out about, you know, Bitcoin's like a once in a thousand years technological disruption. Um, and I think you guys, the one that I come to, and I don't think there's a right analogy, but is email because email was like valuable for people allowed you think about having to like send a snail mail and the process and all of that. Um, and email was relatively easily for people to get access to. They could just get on their phone. It provided value similar to Bitcoin as a store of value. But if you looked at that was all the internet was good for, you were missing, you know, so much more. And um, it took years. It took time for the internet to proliferate. mobile phones to come out and GPS. But yeah, this is um I think what's I think the most interesting is that we've all known this, but the powers that be whether it's the banking sector or from a policy perspective, people in those realms have also known it, but the the zeitgeist, the narrative, it's changing in our direction that okay, it's here. It's here to stay. Now they're ready to like embrace it, which is what matters at the end of the day. Everyone's known there's been negative yielding bonds, but now people are talking about it and they're going to do something by holding money in hard assets, specifically sovereigns. And so that's really where things changed. Gold bugs have been talking about this forever, but it didn't really matter until now we're stacking gold and Bitcoin. Yeah. Can you go back to that river slide real fast? Uh if you can. Uh so, uh just a couple quick things. So, first of all, River, I'm really excited. Alex is going to be doing a a presentation at the summit next week about uh some of this like Bitcoin and adoption in the United States and some of the research they're doing is is is phenomenal and they have this access to data and kind of the way they parse it um some really really interesting things. The other thing I want to hit, if you look at social media in 2005, Jackson, you were saying thanks for the chat room. Uh, you know, kind of kind of breaking ground there. Uh, date, so I'll date myself. My freshman year of college was the year Facebook came out and piloted with uh with with freshmen. Uh, and so I was the first batch of Facebook users uh that year. And uh it was like a LAN, you know, type of thing where you only were within your own little uh university circle and you and and yeah, I think you know your point like it was crazy. It's crazy to see like well, you know, what am I going to do with this fa Facebook thing? Like I thought it was kind of stupid. Uh I still kind of do. I don't have a Facebook account anymore, but but you know, I I I saw I rode the wave for for you know, whatever 15 years. And uh and just crazy to see how many things go. you you start out and that was like a 3% that was probably 3% penetration of the market that first year and now it's it's insane. So, uh but yeah, man, everybody tune in to that river talk if you if you think this is interesting like Alex is going to Alex is going to go to town. Um it's going to be great. Yeah, the the only thing I would add to that is um you know I think that 3% that's quoted on that chart is is probably looking at users. So these these numbers that we've been referencing and I think those are always inherently overstated because if you're just looking at you know unique addresses you know people could have multiple addresses so typically overstates that amount and I would almost I think a better gauge of like adoption is just like the actual monetary value relative to global assets which is much lower than 3%. Like the two trillion versus a thousand trillion or a quadrillion of global asset value at you know 0.2%. 2%. Like that's the real adoption rate to me because it's like just you know put aside like how many users there are. It's just how much how much value is being stored in this new store of value is like the real adoption rate in my mind. So it's just like there's different frames of reference you can look at the adoption. Reality is we're we're extremely early no matter how you slice it. Uh but just wanted to add that. Yeah. Go ahead. I was going to say they're two sides of the same coin because as more dollar or more value goes into the system that means that more people value the asset and so then they inherently will want to receive it. And so that's the big thing that um like if you look at one like one out of a hundred people if we agree that one out of a hundred uh hold any form of Bitcoin when you look at the number of pairs that like are tied in the there's only 08% of the total amount of connections that would be able to be made via that one out of 100 or like I think roughly like in that ratio maybe it's like two out of 100 but the notion is as you increase adoption and connectivity the value starts to grow because people are naturally starting to find value and not having a centralized entity in the middle and the amount of connections grow similar to the internet like as more it's the metaf's law effectively and so that's the other side is that we don't still have the connections people aren't like accepting this for payments and as that starts to grow because the value's grown then that naturally brings more value to the system um so it's a chicken or egg problem it's like you have more value in it then more people recognize it as valuable they want to accept it which deres more value from the network like connectivity price target. Stephen, I have a I have kind of like a twofold question for you. Um, so you know, there's been circles online uh in the Bitcoin community for a while that talk about, you know, Bitcoin obsoletes the state and uh clearly that doesn't happen anytime soon at least. And so there was this thinking within the US government, at least that's from my perception of it because of how hostile the government was, you know, an administration ago or even two administrations ago. Um, so there was this shift in thinking from, you know, Bitcoin is a threat to the dollar to really it's part of the state craft of the United States. It's a tool for advancing, you know, prosperity within the country. It's a new technology. some of the themes we just discussed. I'm curious, you know, when you perceive that inflection point to happen since you've been at BPI for a while now. And then the second part to that question would be, you know, now that that inflection point has happened and we talked about, you know, some of the adoption metrics and just the prosperity and and concentration of wealth and technology of Bitcoin in the United States. What is resonating the most with people now? So, it's like when did the inflection point happen in in you and the team's opinion? And now with ongoing conversations, what are some of the core narratives or or focal points, topics that are being discussed to further that? Yeah. Um, big questions. Uh, but good good stuff to to cover here. So, um, you know, there there are a number of different opinions in the Bitcoin ecosystem. uh individuals of like Bitcoin's interaction with with the state. Uh our thesis has pretty much always been the same. I mentioned Matt's Matt Pine's uh first white paper. If you go back and look like our one of our very first white papers, like 100 pages, Matt Pines talking about Bitcoin's role in the US vers China geopolitical uh conflict. And I mean, here we are uh and we're in the middle of a tariff war uh and hopefully uh you know, not more uh over the next few years. I think there's we're on a collision course with China. And I think he knew that because of his background and and rightly call that out and did a 100 pages on why, you know, why we should think about Bitcoin. uh with regards to China, their belt and road initiative, like all of the sort of uh tentacles of this conflict that you know were already making their way through the system back then. And I know a lot of a lot of people, you know, a lot of Bitcoiners think Bitcoin, you know, or thought or do think Bitcoin obsoletes the state. If that's the case, then don't worry about it. Uh you don't really have to worry about uh you know, the government or like what uh any institute or whoever is working on. Um, if you think the state's a concern, um, or an obstacle or a potential, you know, just whatever issue, then I would say, um, whether it's us or whoever, um, I think it's really important that we have been preparing for Bitcoin to be taken seriously by the United States government for quite some time. to me. Uh I know it's uh I'm sorry I'm getting a little echo, so if I start uh humming and hawing, it's hard to hear yourself on the echo when you're when you're going. It's probably my AirPods are dying. But um I think if you think Bitcoin is going to, you know, become what it's already become, $2 trillion asset class, and then keep going like we were just talking about. If we're if we are that early, then it was just a matter of time before the largest uh most powerful government in the world starts to take it super seriously and starts to look into it and be like, "What is this about? Who's behind this? what is this a threat or is this an asset? And when they're asking that question, it's a little too late to start making the case. Uh when you're in front of the judge, you know, or the jury, it's a little too late to start in your in your in your speaking, it's a little too late to start figuring out what you're going to say. And so, I'm just making like dumbing this down like super simple. Uh so, we've been thinking, okay, one day we think Bitcoin is going to be super successful. We are Bitcoiners. We believe in it. We think it makes sense. It's freedom money. It's like one of the most powerful tools uh techn technological tools that's ever been thrown out there and people are adopting it like you know like madman. It's mayhem in the markets, right? Everybody's Bitcoin's going crazy. It's $100,000. US government's going to take a hard look at this and there's going to be legislation. There's going to be uh regulation. There's going to be all these sorts of things. They're start to start to notice it and do things about it. That's what the government does. Uh that's what bureaucracies do. They take notice and they start doing things and sometimes they're bad things. A lot of times they're they're wrong because they don't understand something. They they're I got to get my mind around it. Like a bureaucracy, they start trying to get their head around things and they make rules and uh you know like a like you know if you're a parent, you have teenagers, you don't really understand, you know, your first couple years, I don't know how to handle this teenager. So you start trying to figure things out to get your arms around the situation and you probably make mistakes. And that's what the government's best at. That's what bureaucracies are the best at. It's group think. Like the worst example of group think ever. It's just like these massive institutions making sweeping decisions about things they have zero understanding on. And in this case, the stakes are even higher because you're talking about a top five asset on its way to being number one. Many people listening to this podcast think this is the, you know, the best asset, the hardest money ever invented and it's going to be uh it's going to quickly surpass gold in terms of market cap. and uh and and so if that's the case, then the stakes could not be higher uh for us to make sure that the right people um understand at least at a kindergartner level why Bitcoin's important and why um in a maximize uh the public benefit you know for individuals but and maximize the the benefit of the United States which is kind of our charter. We we think Bitcoin in the United States can be can be good. Uh this can be good for that. And uh and making that case elect officials, agencies, and that's that's why we're doing what we do next week. It's third year we've done it. Uh I know I'm kind of going down a going on a tangent here. I'm not answering all of your questions, but but I I just wanted to get that out of the way. Like that's why I think um that's why I think our work and the work of other groups and and now we have Senator Lemuses, we have all these, you know, elected officials, Senator Blackburn, Senator Hagerty. Leave anybody out. I could I could go on and on about, you know, them uh elected officials that are advocates for Bitcoin and they get it and they understand it. They think, "Oh my god, this is we can't mess this up." And we need them. We need, you know, groups. We need lobbyist, whoever to to keep pushing because we we don't want what's really dangerous when isn't just people who are like curious and don't understand Bitcoin at all cuz they're not, you know, they're going to say, "Okay, hey, we need to kind of get our heads around this." It's the people who think they understand it and they don't. They're wrong. Those people are dangerous. And so, we want to find them, help, you know, help bring them uh up to speed. Yeah, it's it's well said. And the other thing I would reference is like, you know, we're talking about them trying to get their arms around it, understand it, but at the same time, like they're themselves looking at becoming a quote unquote user, right? Like we have this Bitcoin, maybe this is a good time to ask, you know, status of the SPR, where's the audit, how much Bitcoin do we have? I think that's a first step in like their literal adoption and becoming a user. um which will be very a very powerful signal if and when that does happen where we explicitly state this is how much Bitcoin we have we're holding it forever we're going to look to acquire more um that's that's a very strong uh signal that like we ourselves as a government as a sovereign are going to become a user of this network yeah uh I wish I could tell you the uh what what the holdup is on the on the audit um I think obviously they're running some snacks Um, but uh I'll leave it at that. I think I do expect that audit to come through. I know the deadlines and deadlines have been broken, so I don't know when it'll happen. Uh, but I'm optimistic that we'll get that. I mean, it's it's uh executive order, so it seems like kind of got to do it. Um, but I think yeah, I mean, you know, uh, you look at the Bitcoin act, you look at Senator Lemus' bill, which has been co-signed by a number of people, getting a buying program going. I'm optimistic that we're going to, you know, this stuff just doesn't happen as quickly as we've been a little spoiled as an industry seeing, hey, we had uh, our timeline's hilarious. Bitcoin Bitcoiners timelines are hilarious, right? We're we uh, we're like gradually then suddenly. like most things are just gradually and then gradually and then gradually you know you people grind in Washington DC as lobbyists for like decades uh to get things done and some of that's by design you know because if you pass the bill and like well I guess you don't have to I guess I don't need to pay you anymore if you got it done. Uh and so we've seen go we went from like um complete regulatory I would say capture but like you know uh uh um choke point but like a chokeold uh regulatory chokeold you know choke point 2.0 know to a candidate who was kind of mentioning Bitcoin, made some crazy promises. There's like no way he's going to do any of that. Did most of it. Won won the election. President's talking about Bitcoin executive orders day week one. Uh that doesn't happen like that. That's insane. Like I don't you don't fully appreciate it because we you know we're like, "Oh yeah, great. This is how it works. Presidents talk about you and they do all this stuff." It doesn't work like that. Uh it's it's hilariously like bullish. Like it's wild. And uh we've I spent years and years working at working at the state level um just trying to get like you know state representatives and governors to do basic things and it's like oh maybe next year you know maybe next cycle. And so to have the president of the United States do all that is just so wild. Not to mention the executive order which was a huge win. And so I think I guess I'm encouraging some patience. Uh, I I I mean I want to see it all here, too. I'm just like there's so much going on. And I think the the fact I guess what I'm trying to communicate is the fact that it has been delayed, it has taken a little while longer than we thought or than it was originally said. Doesn't surprise me and doesn't like send me into like, you know, I'm not like, well, the whole thing's over now. I mean, I'm it's kind of what I expected. It's going to take a while. It's a great Brian. It's a great point to contextualize like it goes back to the accelerated business cycles like we've witnessed firsthand an asset go from zero to$2 trillion which it's never really happened at that speed. you see what happened with the ETFs and it the record versus gold and similarly um just the notion like calling out we could be in a different spot if an alternative universe if Trump's not president like completely different like not uh like 180 right in where um the left and a lot of the things happening from regulatory the the you know from the KYC to exchanges to the market structure um so yeah it's been interesting to watch that happen in real time whether it was like Ross took two days instead of one uh and all the way to you know but it makes sense right because in a world of Tik Tok it's not the same but it is that we see this price moving and it's insanely volatile and it's usually volatile to the upside so we're just like primed for that uh serotonin hit till like the the movement goes and you're waiting for the next like bullish catalyst um when in reality it's you just got to like take a step back and realize where we're at, Right. Yeah. I I just think we're we're really we're spoiled uh a little bit and uh and we can't control that, you know. Um it's this is like the coolest roller coaster ride. And I we talk about the BPI like I I'm like this doesn't work like this, you know. Uh and and it does. It has for for uh for us and for the industry and um it helps. I think something else I've said I've been like beating this drum. Um like okay why like why is this working like this? Well it helps to be right uh it helps to be on the right side of history and I think Bitcoiners are uh like helps to be right that like yeah hey the internet is one of the most powerful inventions in the you know last thousand years like this is going to like forever change civilization like you out of your mind you know for what for email? like it sounds crazy. Hopes to be right. I was going to say earlier just I feel bad for Brian in particular because Brian really wants to see the audit, Stephen. He was hoping Where's the corn? He's hoping that you brought the audit with you today. So, I know he's he's a little disappointed, but that's all right. Next episode. I I have a tally sheet. It's just, you know, um, but I promise, Brian, that they do not have more than 21 million. I can guarantee you that. Good. Take that to I was concerned about that, actually. Uh, but all right. I mean, we get we're a little over an hour into this. I'll be curious to hear if um maybe there's anything else topical from the week that we might have missed. And if not, um I would like to just discuss a little bit more about the summit that's happening next week. Give a teaser to what will be happening there. You know, some of the notable speakers. Um let's get people excited about what's going on uh with the Bitcoin Policy Summit if if there's nothing else. Brian, Michael, anything else from from your guys side? No, let's talk let's talk summit. Cool. Yeah, let's talk summit. Uh I uh I encourage I'll just do the uh do the bet here. like if you're in DC, if you're going to be in the area, if you want to just fly in last minute, we'd love to have you. Um, we do have a few tickets. Not a lot. We have a few left, though. Did not expect that to be an issue. We moved to a larger venue this year and we're like, "All right, we just like we want people to be able to show up. We want people like, you know, just show up day of and register and I don't think it's going to happen." So, uh, if you can, uh, if you're interested, go to btcpoliciesummit.org. btcp policysummit.org and you can uh request a ticket there. It is uh pending approval uh to keep the riff raff out. So, um it's going to be a full day, man. We have packed so much. It's we basically packed two summits into one day just because there's so much we want to cover. I think the important uh one important thing I kind of give you the history. This is our third annual summit. Uh we started this back, you know, two years ago because we realized we had a massive issue. The first time most people in Washington DC ever were acquainted or introduced to Bitcoin was in the wake of the FTX collapse. And so Bitcoin was finally in the headlines like for the first time in a while. Uh price, you know, price is doing well. It's nothing crazy. And then FTX, of course, you know, super, you know, Super Bowl stadiums are named after it. So everybody's like, "Wait a second." and it hit everyone. The fallout kind of splattered everywhere. So, we're like, we need to get the the key people in a room and kind of re-educate. Uh you never want to re-educate. You want to educate people. You want to catch them when they're a blank slate. It's far more difficult to uh if you've ever had like a bad teacher growing up and they they tried to teach you something but it was like all messed up and then you kind of got to reprogram that. It's way more difficult to learn something after you thought you've already learned it. And we so we had to step up to that challenge. And I think our website said basically like FTX collapsed. Many people think Bitcoin, you know, is a scam. Is it a scam? Like what's wrong with Bitcoin? You know, come find out. It was like, let's just lean into it. Uh, you know, policy makers are are faced with protecting the public from, you know, things like that. So, we just leaned into it and said like, "Let's be curious together. Show up. Let's talk. We got Bitcoin experts and we're uh we're going to we're just no stone unturned." You know, this isn't a marketing play. Let's just talk. And they did. People like, "Okay, I like that vibe." Like, uh, so that's that was the launch of of the summit uh last year. We said, "Okay, um, should America embrace Bitcoin?" Like, we're starting to get there. things are starting to happen and now uh that America seemingly has at least at some level versus a year ago um we said okay America seems to be embracing Bitcoin what what happens now so that's the point of departure for the summit and we have a number of keynotes we have industry uh players we have mining companies I kind of mentioned river let me just kind of go through kind of different buckets I'm not going to read the entire schedule but kind of give you a vision for it so we're we're kicking off the future of Bitcoin in America point part one So, uh, we just released, um, not that long ago, uh, Bit Bitcoin Policy Institute did, it's top of our website, kind of first thing you're going to see if you look at our our, uh, white papers and our publications, like a like a policy framework, like what we think is important, why we think it's important, kind of like on the policy side, like what we're working on and focus on. And, uh, Zach Shapiro, our head of policy, he's going to unpack that in like 10 minutes. Uh, I have no idea how, but he's going to do it in 10 minutes. And then we have, uh, Bo Hines, who I know everybody here's familiar with, White House Council on Digital Assets, executive director, and Connor Brown from Senator Lemus' office, going to do a fireside chat there about Bitcoin and the future of America, just sort of like like uh kind of broadcasting out like what what things will look like down the road. We have um three US senators um talking about the Bitcoin legislative agenda and um and then you mentioned Alex Floren. Alex is doing a keynote. We have some of our fellows speaking. Then we're kind of going to pivot for the second half of the morning to uh domestic and global Bitcoin adoption. Um, and that's where Alex River, CEO at River is going to do like do a do a bit on the American Bitcoin advantage. Like the advantage we have and that's a huge part of our our pitch to Washington is like we have an unprecedented advantage. We have a lead and the last thing you want to do when you have a leave like this is just fumble the ball. Um, so we got to seize the momentum and it's sort of this once in a generation opportunity kind of like we did with the internet. Uh, we we could have we could have could have messed that up. Good thing we didn't. Look at what look at what's happened. We have some of the most valuable companies in the world and had, you know, the most valuable companies in the world. They're all here and we're losing some of that now. This is a chance to take it back. Uh, let me find another one. There's another couple cool uh bits we have planned. Um, so this is I'm really excited about this elicit finance. Let's touch on elicit finance in America. Like how do these work? Where's Bitcoin fit into that? Is Bitcoin used for money laundering? Uh, let's blow some of these false narratives out of the water. Uh, obviously if you want to launder money, you use cash. If you don't, you're going to get busted. Um, just launder your money. If you want to launder money, don't use Bitcoin. uh some of those types of like basic things is we need to tell this we need to tell these tales. We need to dispel these like false narratives. And then the other uh big far side I think I think the thing I'm I'm really looking forward to more than anything is Matt Pines, our executive director sitting down with deputy director of the CIA Michael Ellis. And uh that's going to be fascinating. Um, we're super honored to have him join us and, uh, I think his first time publicly speaking, uh, about Bitcoin, coming to Bitcoin event. Uh, so excited to have that. That's going to be awesome. That's like can't miss uh, level TV right there. Um, and then we're going to pivot to BRCA. Uh, and, uh, Richie Torres. We're talking about Democrat uh, congressman. He's one who's uh, on the right side of history here and doing everything he can, fighting hard. So, he's coming in joining us and that's just the first like third of the day. Any questions so far, guys? No, I mean it's a great recap. I think one of the the big things that sticks out about BPI is like you guys are genuinely having a lot of fun and I remember when we first met before Pines came on full-time you were referencing just the prerequisite to come on as a fellow and it was just like like you know the Navy Seals and Marines of kind of Bitcoin and understanding but also coming having professional experience and I think you keyed in on something that's super profound is um you guys are just right and it's just true. We all know where Bitcoin's going and that it reminds me of the notion of like technology acts as a fulcrum and it's like a point of leverage u that the greater the technology the larger the amplification is and similar to like what you guys are able to achieve with the uh budget as it compares to the other kind of um I know it's different in the sense that you guys aren't a trade association but similar in the sense that you're advocating for an industry that's growing but you're advocating for the right area of the industry and being done in the right way and I think that presents itself in like how the taste of what you guys have achieved, but also the group coming together. And so, super excited. I won't personally be there, but the I can't make it uh for some personal reasons, but the team will be here along with some other folks. And so, uh I'm going to feel the FOMO, but I know they'll they'll fill me in and the on-ramp and early writers presence will be uh in DC in full force. Yeah, I I uh I'm excited to have some of you guys join. And and I mean we have I don't know 700 800 people coming right now. So it's going to be it's going to be awesome. It's going to be packed. Um I think you mentioned being right. Uh I think for an industry for a trade group for you know for for a think tank whatever. Uh I think being right is a necessary but but not sufficient condition uh to being successful. So like you can be right and still lose. You can be right and be you know a number of different things. uh can be pricks. Uh and I think you know you still lose but I think being on being correct uh and then also just like being honest about what you know and don't know what you understand and what you don't understand um is important. I think then working just your tail off um and being kind, being generous, you know, and uh and bringing the right people together, being strategic. Uh, I think those are all like you can be right and not do all those things well and and still still pretty, you know, get cooked. Uh, but you also it helps when you're if you're doing all those things and you're right, then you're going to find success. And I think that's what we're seeing as an industry, man. like everybody um everybody works hard, everybody's real sharp, everybody's very strategic. Uh but also like um sort of generous uh with their time, generous with their, you know, uh like social circles, you know, our political circles, like we we're open and I think we have the right posture to find success in DC. And I think that's what we're seeing like elected officials kind of pile in like not only you know there's the what we talking about like with the 3% now we're headed toward you know whatever market cap like whatever percentage of of uh the market cap is going to be in the United States. There's that. There's like the population thing and then there's like we like being around these guys. We like speaking at their events. They're nice people. They're they're good to us. They help us. Like uh I've said this a few times about lobbyists like the best lobbyists, which we're not lobbyists, we're we're a think tank, but like uh advocates, I guess I should say, the best advocates and lobbyists are those who have strong subject matter uh subject matter expertise and experience. And so when you are a staffer, when you're an elected official, you go to those people and you give a couple, you know, you get one or two shots and one of a few things happen. You either embarrass them because you told something that was a lie and you might win that day, but you're going to lose the rest of your kind of career. You're a liar or you're just like an idiot or another other things. But if you're reliable and sharp and you're like, I'm here to help you to help you do your job and make your job easier and make you look good, then generally they're going to like being around you. And I think that's what we're trying to do as uh like a BPI and I think I see a lot of Bitcoiners like the 200 some that are coming today on the hill is like, hey, we're here to support um we don't agree with everything you guys do up here. We don't agree with everything everybody does individually, right? But like with this, we can come together. We can work uh we can be collaborative. We can educate you. If you have questions, we're here to answer them. We give you damn good answers. Answers. Some of them are 100page white papers like here. Is this helpful? All right. You know, um and we want to be able to give talking points. If you're like, I'm trying to figure out, you know, whatever. We're here to deliver that. Uh why are help me get my head around why is self custody important? It's not like you idiot. You don't understand self. No, no. Let's bring in some self-custo let's bring in some wallets. Like you guys talk talk to them. We're just, you know, think tank guys. Um, whatever it is. What's Bitcoin mining? Mining is that data centers? Well, sort of, you know, let's let's educate you. Let's like how deep you want to go, man. We we can do we can we can do a week of of meetings. Um but then also being able to like package that we're um we're a we're an industry of engineers, you know, like uh mentioned uh to somebody the other day. I think I talked to my wife about it. I was like, "Man, Bitcoiners, man, feel sorry for outsiders because it's kind of like your neighbor, you know, and you're like, "Hey, man, my car is kind of running a little rough." or your or your you know I said neighbor cuz one of my neighbors was a mechanic uh uh at one point it was like you go to your mechanic like the car's running a little rough and they're like okay I don't need to know why you know I'm not a mechanic I just need to know what you need me to do or pay you um that's it and they're like no no no here listen so when they built this car uh well actually let's go back to the you know the Ford Model T and then they iterated to this and then they did a diesel engine and then this like man I don't have time and I just don't like understand anything you're saying. I don't need to know how the car was built. I just need to know kind of why what's wrong with it? Why this is important, you know? And I think that Bitcoiners are a lot like engineers and mechanics. Like we want to because we we think this is the most beautiful engine ever conceived. You know, it's a it's a 57 Hemi. Like you don't understand like how the Hemi came to be. We're passionate about it. And I think sometimes we forget other people. they they just want to know the benefits like why. Uh and they don't need to know the entire history and we think if someone's not interested in that that that means maybe they don't take it as seriously. Um but anyway, uh I I think that that's what we're doing in Washington is like where however deep you want to go or not go, we'll meet you right there. I love it. Well, yeah, Stephen. Um really appreciate you joining us today. Michael just had to jump, I think, for another call, but it was a great conversation. It was a pleasure to get to know you and um we'll share as well in the show notes the link to the summit. So if there are any stragglers on the fence that are local or maybe even have the opportunity to fly in and join um you just go to bit uh I believe it's btcpolicsummit.org and there you can find uh the tickets online. Stephen, is there anything else you wanted to shout out before we wrap up here? No, Jackson, Brian, Michael, I just want to say uh appreciate you guys. appreciate on ramp. It's a great show and thanks for having me on. Look forward to seeing some of you guys next week. Um really really do appreciate it. Thanks Stephen. Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the show. If you found the information valuable, please share the episode with a friend or leave a rating on your favorite podcast app. All the links we discussed in today's show will be in the show notes inside your podcast app. Before we finish, a quick reminder that Onra Media is forformational and entertainment purposes only and nothing should be construed as investment or legal advice. 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