The U.S. Just Kicked Off the Bitcoin Gold Rush—Here’s What It Means

what you're telling me is that music is about to stop and we're going to be left holding the biggest bag of odorous exent ever assembled in the history of God 1974 1987 92 97 2000 and whatever we want to call this it's all just the same thing over and over we can't help ourselves I say when we [Music] sell I say when we sell all right welcome back to the last trade Tim we got Tim Cotman Brian cabis and Michael tanguma Tim I really like the portrait that you have in in your background it's very Regal looking it's a new it's a new landscape and new background for the show I'm just trying to be on theme that it's a golden age for America that's that's all right a sound money podcast with sound money that's right I love it well I got some work to do but at least I'm not in a in an empty room anymore like I was six months ago but uh let's pull up the price here Tim it's also uh happy early birthday to you I think when we record yeah when we publish this tomorrow it'll be your birthday so how are you feeling on your birthday Tim thank you I got an extra extra long orange tie on today to celebrate my birthday so you know it's it's uh that is irresponsibly long Tim it's it's irresponsibly long and we're going to the moon I'm going to meet Michael on Mars we're going to have a coffee it's going to be great we're only three months away we're only three months away from that being like memed of who's uh who can be more irresponsibly long when it comes to the the Tie by the Bitcoin conference it's just going to be like a a draping like on the floor yeah dragging it on the floor behind you oh God we we took a nice little dip here yeah so kind of diving we're looking at the price for those who uh are just joining on audio we're looking at the price on the on-ramp Terminal onchain Market Research free for you all to use so check it out if you'd like but we're looking at a price of about $80,000 per Bitcoin we've had a interesting week uh since we recorded last Wednesday or Thursday with Lee bratcher from the Texas blockchain council we saw the Executive Order be passed by Trump and we're going to get more into that but what do you guys make of the price action of the past week I thought we had recovered a bit we did yesterday I guess right we were um we were coming back from a trough of around like 7677 but looks like things are back on the way down what what do you make of this Mr uh Brian cabelus house View House view uh shortterm shortterm noise um none of this matters I don't really care that we're at 80 this is this is cheap STS for those who are on zero good time to buy um you know Bitcoin is is still largely conflated as a risk on asset by most Traders so whether that's hedge funds or people just thinking shortterm and not accumulating for the long term and so it gets wrapped up in the broader macr turbulence whether that's um you know the the sort of tariff Wars going on right now uh Equity selling off General uncertainty in markets um that is leading to more of a riskof sentiment than we've seen really you know over the past year or so things have been up and to the right for for most asset classes up until the past you know month or so and so I think uh that's really all this is it's it's Bitcoin is continuing to be wrapped up in um you know a broader view that it is you know a tech speculation um you know I think that that narrative is going to to slowly transition over time I just think we're in the early Innings of that occurring and and um you know I think what we'll get to around thebr uh is an important signal that will help swing the pendulum to the to the other side of that and and open people's eyes to the riskof nature of Bitcoin at its at its core in terms of its monetary properties um and what it can do over the long term if you are willing to and able to ignore the near-term volatility that we're seeing right now I agree yeah this podcast is a blessing and a curse it's a blessing because because I get to see Tim's thae grow week after week but it's a curse because we have to talk about the weekly uh price move on the Bitcoin price I agree with you it's it is noisy one of the things one of the stats that I saw that indicates the noise and kind of the misunderstanding or lack of understanding from investors around Bitcoin and the value proposition is that since February 10th so about a month ago it's been $5.2 billion of outflows from the Bitcoin ETFs so I think a lot of this is from uh hedge funds and more short-term bias toward the asset class but I think it's also just retail investors who are getting their first taste of Bitcoin volatility because the ETFs have only existed now for a little over 12 months and so a lot of that demand is from the retail investor base 80% of the ownership is still roughly retail so I think it is noisy it feels incredibly mispriced just given the news of last week and where this all goes but uh Michael curious to hear what your thoughts are I think what Brian shared spot on I mean the reality is it's a small asset in a large pool of assets so when liquidity starts to dry up or deleveraging it's an easy thing to sell the main thing that comes to mind is um just this notion of like I think we just generally estimate or assume that everyone is at the level of understanding of long-term assets store a value and to Brian's Point like we're on our way there but this is still a risk asset I would say it's still a trade for a lot of people outside of a traditional trade like for for this middle tier of like what we think of as a knowledgeable bitcoiner there's still a thought of like I have a price point I have a house I want to trade it for and that's what money's for but I still think it's not like this asset that is just understood that I will sweep excess Capital excess productivity for my future Generations right and like that's that will that will grow over time but if it's not there then ultimately it's going to be one of the first things that are sold cuz it's hyper liquid would when risk goes on because you have other dollar denominated obligations that you have to um manage and deal with and so I I think it just makes complete sense I also think like I don't I haven't looked at like the vix and the volatility but like this is the most volatile I've seen Bitcoin probably for the past for a long time maybe since I've been around in the space because it's been volatile but not like this like going and doing the 10% swings back and forth um at least for the past five years so I do think this is a symptom or just like a proxy for what's happening in the global markets uh and it's just kind of the first thing to bounce either direction based on whatever signals are coming yeah the the volatility that you mentioned Michael is not isolated to bitcoin either this week alone there was almost $3 trillion do wiped out uh from the mag 7 and so a lot of investors still perceive Bitcoin to be risky or highly volatile which it is but volatility a isn't inherently bad and B I think investors forget that the mag 7 which is about 30% of the S&P 500 in terms of market cap and certainly drives most of the returns these are very highly volatile stocks as well like they're draw there are 10 20 30% draw Downs quite frequently actually one additional one to contextualize that we brought up on Final settlement Jackson I think you'll appreciate is uh I think it was like last seven to 10 days Nvidia wiped off a trillion dollars in its market cap the whole bailout in 20089 was $700 billion which is wild and so what yeah what what this amounts to then I think is we're still in the early stages to your point Michael because most investors perceive this to be a trade or it's part of their you know it's a 1% to 3% allocation of their portfolio what most investors are still missing is that Bitcoin and every other asset class for that matter is a proxy for Global liquidity it doesn't mean that bitcoin's price only moves on liquidity but at the most fundamental basis you don't protect your wealth in dollars because over time they devalue so naturally you allocate to Investments such as equities or real estate or Bitcoin and the sooner investors realize that liquidity and these macro forces of debt deficit spending M2 which is money supply growth are driving asset classes across the board the sooner we see Bitcoin take off from a$2 trillion do asset class to a five or1 trillion dollar investment yeah that's just yeah it's exactly right right I mean it just It ultimately comes down to you know what you're describing is scarcity effectively like why why are why is real estate valuable why are equities valuable the best companies in the world there's only a handful of them they have Moes uh they have competitive advantages uh similar Dynamics with real estate Bitcoin is is different and special because it's it's this perfectly scarce asset and therefore um you know that combined with it being small relative to everything else like said Michael makes it the fastest horse off the bottom so like whenever um and I think we're already seeing uh Global equid um sort of bottom and and return back upwards and there's some amount of lag in terms of when you see uh Bitcoin and other assets move in response to that um but typically Bitcoin is is the fastest horse out of that um because it is in my mind like it's the purest form it's the purest expression of what we're describing around these scarcity Dynamics um and so yeah it's a it's a matter of time it's you know I think if you're looking at everything this Administration is doing um you know I think it's it's pretty apparent that you know whether you want to call it purposeful um like like they want they effectively don't you know Trump has said he doesn't care he's not looking at the stock market he's okay with it going down effectively because he wants to bring down interest rates he wants wants to force Pal's hand um in some in some manner in so far as they don't have to roll over all this debt at where interest rates are today and so I think that's also part of what's going on here and so again long-term perspective if you can look past sort of this uh you know initial period Bitcoin will be the fastest horse outs you know once we're outside of that and Global liquidity returns because they're going to have to print regardless as we know um in order to service the debt levels regardless of what Doge does or regardless of if they're able to um you know keep a lid on inflation to some extent by reducing energy costs which we've seen some Headway in in the past couple weeks um ultimately the end state is more printing and therefore you want to own scarce assets and Bitcoin is the most scarce asset yeah like somebody has to Blink first but we're in a deep deep recession uh I didn't realize like how bad it was until because we kind of live in a bubble and if you have a bunch of friends and family members that have you know protected their wealth in Bitcoin you don't feel it as much but when you go out and talk to people in retail and the things that are happening and you can see like anecdotes on Twitter it's just really really messy out there from shortage a reduction in hours for people in the retail space to the things that are on like being left on the Shelf to I had heard an anecdote of a retailer that had to create like basically a sub brand like that was the cost was you know 50% reduced just to be able to sell to a a market segment because they can't afford that like it's just really bad um so there's the rolling over the debt and having to reduce interest rates to to be able to pay for that but then there's just a natural like societal factor that plays into this where people not being able to make ends meet and all the things associated with it um that the liquidity has to return or you just end up in like chaos I would also say I think like we've been there for a while like I don't think that's a recent phenomenon I think towards probably the back half of the Biden Administration there were similar anecdotes um I think to some extent you know at least if you're you know if you're defining a recession as um you know decline in GDP growth um you know I think to some extent You could argue that that was effectively papered over by government spending and um government jobs effectively so influencing those those uh government issued statistics via effectively propping it up and papering over that so I think what you're seeing now is as you strip out a lot of that excess spending and waste I think we're starting to see the reality of what's really going on uh but to your point Michael like I think when you go out and talk to people um you know people are struggling out there whether it's you know people in the retail space running a business or just people you know living paycheck to paycheck um um yeah I I think uh I think we're just starting to see it more now and to tie it back to Tim's painting in the background one of the uh stated objectives of the Trump Administration is to have a golden age in America and so I do think that ties into the Strategic Bitcoin reserve the executive order that was issued on Thursday March 6 Believe last week and so this actually there's a lot to talk about one thing I want to touch on Just for audience investors to think about is Bitcoin and all these Investments that we discussed all traditional asset classes they move with liquidity because they're effectively proxies or store values to protect against the debasement of Fiat currencies where Bitcoin goes longer term or the first 15 years were defined by the expansion of the money supply the post great financial crisis QE environment where this goes the next 15 years is you have Sovereign Nations allocating to bitcoin as part of their strategic reserve and these are going to be pools of capital that are far less sensitive to the volatility and short-term uh distractions and noise that exist and impact what's been or impact retail investors which have largely driven the ownership and allocation toward Bitcoin so let's talk about the Strategic Bitcoin Reserve I think there's plenty to cover I first maybe want to just get your thoughts uh from the group in terms of was this kind of what you expected there was a lot of flip-flop over the past couple weeks and months about Bitcoin only is it going to be other crypto assets and what we saw now is the Bitcoin strategic reserve and then the digital asset stock pile is this in line with what you guys thought or is it different to me it's it's it hon it honestly exceeded my expectations from like a bitcoiner perspective um I think to as you alluded to it was not clear what this was going to look like in the weeks and months uh leading up to it there was talk about about it um there was posturing about it but it wasn't clear what it would actually look like and and there's a few key takeaways in my mind um one is the is the real clear delineation between Bitcoin and the other crypto assets and so there's two different facilities there's the Bitcoin strategic reserve and there's the digital asset stockpile the the Bitcoin Reserve we're going to hold our Bitcoins we're going to figure out how many Bitcoins we have we're going to do an audit and we're going to look to way look uh for ways to acquire more Bitcoins in a budget neutral way the stockpile on the other hand um you know we're saying we we'll likely hold these we're definitely not buying more and we might sell these other crypto assets if it behooves us um and so that's a real uh clear sort of Line in the Sand in my mind and and important signal from this Administration saying we understand Bitcoin is different it's special sax had commentary around this uh afterwards um you know highlighting you know there's no issuer uh that's a very you know there's a ton of reasons why Bitcoin is different than than the broader crypto space but if you want to just have a very cleancut concise message uh it's the only one without an issuer um and so it does have you know uh basically more credible neutrality and actual decentralization relative to these other assets and therefore you know it makes sense um as a strategic Reserve asset where these other assets you know they're they're specifically not calling them a reserve it's a stockpile so we just happen to have these other assets we're not thinking about them long term like we are with Bitcoin so that was one of the biggest takeaways for me um I also I found it curious how like some quote unquote bitcoiners perceived this as like not great um one from a couple different perspectives one being like I think there was a sort of delusional assumption that they would just be smash buying Bitcoin immediately and that obviously didn't happen but even beyond that I think there's some sentiment that like you know this wasn't the purpose of Bitcoin how could you how could you be cheering on the US government embracing Bitcoin and I think that's just completely misguided uh in terms of a line of thinking because like how did you think that this was going to play out like if Bitcoin is to be Global money governments are going to adopt it whether you like it or not and you know Bitcoin will never become Global money if it's just a group of anarchist Cipher Punks on the internet using it and so this was always going to be the path I think we're on an accelerated path you could you could certainly make that argument I don't I personally didn't expect the US government to come out and embrace Bitcoin like this uh this quickly um but I think this was always always going to be an in inevitability and so I I uh I struggle with folks who are who are perceiving this as somehow bad or or bad for Bitcoin yeah and one one thing too is just things move so quickly in the space where I think we almost have to just take a step back and think about a couple years ago certainly when we all entered the space there was some sort of lingering concern about will the government ban it or if they could ban it what are the implications of that because we all know how bans have happened in China and has been ineffective but there was this overarching concern or at least thoughtfulness around how do you protect yourself against a government that may take a Draconian SP response toward a form of money that's competing potentially against their interests what I think is remarkable is now we have the US government embracing Bitcoin and then also recognizing Bitcoin and stable coins as a way to strengthen the US dollar and so that is is something that I easily Overlook but it's just an incredible it's incredible how quick quickly we got to that point where whether it was four years ago five eight years ago the narrative the discussion was totally different and now Brian I wasn't like you I didn't necessarily think this was inevitable maybe um just for whatever reason I didn't think I I didn't think it was inevitable but anyways to be here now it's it's incredibly exciting um and this is incredible Milestone yeah Michael what did you say well so I was going to touch on both of what you you guys shared in the sense of there's a few things one is like the economic reality there's like there is what what exists um in the sense of like I just always anchor back do you want to make money or do you want to be right because being right is the romanticized nature of what Brian was referencing around we're all going to hold these keys in our house and the government's never going to adopt it whatever like version that somebody had in their mind and it's interally like we've been talking about a lot internally um this notion of like most people don't remember uh a conversation they have or a concert it's it goes back to like when you interview somebody in the first 30 seconds you make the conclusion on if you like them or not the rest is uh spent validating it it's like somebody came into Bitcoin had this idea and then they just it was very hard for most because most people either aren't critically thinking or thinking objectively and for themselves to R to understand the economic reality of how this will actually play out and anybody that has done that obviously knows all the liquidity sits at sovereign's family offices people that manage the world's capital and if they're going to come in and then they're going to come in it's the only way that this thing can win is money and we obviously spent a lot of time on that on the other side and Jackson loves talking about like it's a really good um mental model or Paradox that like people that will scream self- custody ties into like you're actually putting people into an ETF because you're selling this version of the future that is not actually based in economic reality because most people do not want to manage all of their wealth on their person and deal with it and so that's just a reality of that the time back to to your point Jackson like we are so kind of like messed up in our brains when it comes to the serotonin and dopamine levels of like Twitter and Bitcoin are kind of like the same proxies like they're so reactive to the market that we just want to see the Vault like we just want to see things happen you want to see the announcements we want see the price move and the reality is like to your point this is the great like taking a step back from the minutia of the um the mechanics of what's there because I think it could possibly change specifically if there's like actual legislation outside of the executive order the simple fact is that you have the president of the leading nation in the world not only talking about it favorably because the alternative was whatever every what had existed the past five plus years is the pure just like stigma and it's a scam like call like literally calling scam in a Ponzi well so scam in that but then the radioactive nature that it would be banned because that's where this has been a complete 180 shift from the institutions the RAS and folks were talking to because now if the government comes in and this ties in you can't talk about this without the OCC because the OCC is leading from the administration side and the pressure there and we talked about this again um earlier this week but jaon you know this well like high net worths family offices institutions don't want to catch a falling knife they rather pick up the asset on the way back it's very similar with dealing with the banks like catching the falling knife coming into the space is going to coinbase and binance and all these third party exchange catching it on the upswing is just going to your bank when they've already approved it and then just buying it out of your account because now you're just like you're preserving your wealth you're not going to just have it evaporate because the government banned it so there's a lot embedded in this n this notion of indep in a strategic Reserve just saying that we're not going to go and take you and black bag you or try to kidnap you or try to take the asset and then anything else is really gravy and The Sovereign level competition for the underlying is just part again of the economic reality if there's only 21 million it's naturally going to end up this way yeah what's the saying history doesn't repeat but it Rhymes I uh published something on my personal newsletter last week where I'd categorize what we're seeing now with Bitcoin within the United States very similar to be what happened in the mid 1800s with the gold rush so in quick background in 1848 when gold was discovered in California there was a lot of skepticism and so there were communities within um you know the surrounding areas that recognize that there actually was gold here but this is a precious metal and of course there's going to be doubts that there could actually be significant amounts of this precious metals in the hills and so naturally then there was skepticism around the country around the world and most of the state isolated where I almost think of similar to bitcoin those who were early to adopt the asset class were in this bubble and then there was always this skepticism that exists outside of that where again going back to that conversation well maybe the government will ban it who knows what will happen the banks will never step in institutional investors won't touch it so existed within this little Community similar to what happened in the 1800s with the gold Russian California but the critical thing what happened later that year in 1848 was President James pulk delivered a State of the Union Address in December of 1848 and he acknowledged uh a report about the discoveries of gold in California and pretty much from that moment forward there was widespread acknowledgement and belief and they knew that there was gold in California so what ensued in the following years was hundreds of thousands of people migrated to California not only in the United States but globally in search of discovering gold and so what we've witnessed now in the past week is the pulk moment for Bitcoin where you have this stamp of approval now from the Trump Administration they have the Strategic Bitcoin reserve and there's potentially ways now that they'll explore to acquire more of it but this is really the signal to the rest of the world that we've given this the stamp of approval bitcoin's legitimate we're going to AC or we're going to hold it at least likely acquire more of it and this is really setting off what will be the digital goal rush or the Bitcoin rush and uh maybe to give Tim his uh his credit you know he's been having some pretty bullish price predictions on Twitter and part of this conversation really is all about the convergence of everyone realizing this is the thing that they want right from The Sovereign level to the individual to the balance sheet and there's we're kind of like seeing you can squint um that people are coming around to that this thing has value but not how much value and how much of their wealth needs to be in it and it reminds me Jackson what you just shared um of this chart and this chart gets a lot of slack I'm pulling up the the wart Republic and the hyperinflation of the uh the mark the the reason why I bring it up is because it's not to insinuate like that we end up in hyperinflation with the dollar and the in the traditional sense that you can't spend it and Society breaks down but there's that that point where everyone realizes what Jackson was alluding to and you kind of see that you you don't see any more downwards pressure into selling but versus the dollar it just kind of rips and I think that's ultimately what happens once people in real estate and all these like everyone has this door they're trying to get through and you can make the case that the Dollar's hyperinflated against Bitcoin the past 15 years to go from effectively zero to you know $80,000 or 108 at the the height that is that's insane when you think about it at from zero monetizing in real time and so I think like we're just on the precipice of the market understanding this and whether it's in 24 months or 48 months you'll see something like this relative to the dollar and that'll be everyone understanding actually what is bitcoin yeah and the implications of this as well for the country and for States for that matter as well is those Nations or states that lead within Bitcoin adoption are ultimately going to be the jurisdictions that accumulate the most wealth in the 21st century it's like the same thing in the 1800s hundreds of thousands of people go to go to California and to discover and extract gold out of the ground people make incredible amounts of money from that they build new businesses new infrastructure the same thing is going to happen and that's why Trump and his administration wanted to campaign on being the they say crypto president but it really is Bitcoin president when you think about the implications of the Strategic Bitcoin reserve and then the digital asset stockpile so this is incredibly bullish for the asset class but it's also really bullish for the uh country as well I I call it the orange age because you have orange man and he is now a big proponent of the orange coin so I I don't think it's the Golden Age anymore it's really the orange age of America yeah I would also say I think um similar to what you both described and and Luke growman has talked about this a bit but I think everything they're doing is a signal to the average American that one you know we're not going to ban this and so it gives them it gives the average person air cover and space and and the ability to learn about Bitcoin and Save in Bitcoin um and continue to spend dollars and I think that's effectively what the plan is is because they I think they know internally like yeah we're going to continue to debase the dollar um you know when we're sitting here 20 years from now um you know that trajectory of debasement is going to be uh unchanged if not accelerated and so this is giving the average person the out to save in Bitcoin and spend in dollars and what I think is great about this too as well we talked about it a couple of weeks ago but want to just highlight it again really quickly is a lot of people won't ad adopt Bitcoin until it's incredibly easy for them to do so and there's a lot of reasons for it it's like people don't have time people don't actually have a lot of money to put into it like we're again in this bubble but if you move a little bit outside of that it ties into what Michael mentioned there will be a point in the future I don't know when that happens but people will be able to access Bitcoin directly through their traditional banking relationship and so until that is widely accessible most people still are not going to buy Bitcoin Direct hold it directly if they're going to opt for any solution and this maybe applies to the top 50% in the US they're going to buy the ETF and so why this is positive why is it good that the US government and why is it good that the states are going to adopt Bitcoin because ultimately a lot of their constituents won't do it on their own terms and this is a way for States if they do it responsibly and they do it with the right intentions they can actually use the adoption of Bitcoin to better the lives of their constituents yeah I mean this all talk goes back to the ETF even being approved and we've talked about on previous shows where if you're running a country your your individuals the constituents need to be able to spend if you're going to onshore and you're going to produce things they have to be able to you like they have to sell it to somebody and so the individuals have to protect their wealth like it's very fundamental on why this is important for every country and specifically the US um and maybe this ties into like The Sovereign game theory of again we don't get the serot in or dopamine hit that another country just AED in and bought you know 100,000 Bitcoin not Bitcoins by the way Brian but that's a different it's 100,000 Golds it's 100,000 it's a common uh thing I think in the industry is it Bitcoin or Bitcoins uming with our Bitcoins but with the largest investment in a digital asset firm in the past the history with uh the UAE mgx GMX uh mgx mgx so mgx Target hundred billion dollar for AI Investments it's not even digital asset related but if you go back to just pure Sovereign Game Theory playing out into wanting to be a leader in any industry and sector the UAE has had a strong stance in leading in new emerging technology specifically AI but they've also behind the scenes have had Partnerships with Mara and other miners it's been rumored that they've been mining on their own via their own energy uh via nuclear we know Bhutan is mining there's no shortage of countries that you know you can make the case that's their first instance of like buying or getting Bitcoin exposure via their natural resources point being is um to put $2 billion into one of the largest exchange globally that's their proxy for how do you start to buy the pixs and shovels to get exposure to the space and then shortly after that uh it's come out that I guess Trump's uh Team or network from his business side relations are actively looking at getting exposure to the binance US arm um so this is happening in real time it's just takes time for people to like execute on a purchase when you think about consensus and just buying that those sizes those size purchases but um it's playing out it's playing out actively right now Bitcoin custody is evolving and as institutional allocators increasingly look to incorporate digital sound money into their portfolios risk management and operational excellence are Paramount both self- custody and single thirdparty custody expose institutions to significant vulnerabilities that's why Hamp is pioneering a new standard multi-institution custody which eliminates single points of failure adding fault tolerance and redundancy to bitcoin custody with onramp Bitcoin is secured in a segregated Cold Storage multis Vault guarded by three independent institutional grade custodians none of which have unilateral control funds are fully auditable on chain cannot be reh hypothecated and can only move or be withdrawn at the explicit direction of the end client multi-institution custody removes the operational and Technical burdens of private Key Management providing an Institutional grade custody solution that meets the stringent demands of family offices raas endowments and Pension funds we recently launched onramp institutional a dedicated segment of the business designed to provide secure Innovative Bitcoin custody and advisory solutions for institutions worldwide providing allocators with robust security without compromising on accessibility and allowing them to tap into a comprehensive Suite of financial services from Trading to lending and more all built to institutional standards discover how onramp institutional can elevate your firm's Bitcoin strategy schedule a consultation with our team to learn more at onramp bitcoin.com yeah I would love to hear uh Brian and Tim from you guys you were at the Bitcoin for America what' you call it event or conference it wouldn't be a conference Bitcoin for yeah Bitcoin for America Summit I like that you guys were there earlier this week um it was an invite only event so I guess it was quite intimate wanted to get your guys thoughts just in terms of the discussions that were had the people you spoke to uh what were what was the sentiment like coming off the Strategic Bitcoin Reserve executive order I think you saw a few quite a few things I'll hit on on one or two at this um Bitcoin for America Forum one you had um both the house and the Senate either introduce or reintroduce legislation with six co-sponsors each but um almost more telling it's the first time that we saw Michael sailor do a presentation talking about the um aspect of Bitcoin being a defense system for the country um which kind of goes into software and Jason Lowry and that that sort of a vein so I thought that along with a few of the other talks about bit bonds about um should the country uh look at self- custody or use custodians how to buy Bitcoin um in a responsible Market neutral Market maker sort of way uh Capital Market sort of conversations I hadn't heard that before so I thought that was very interesting and then um kind of almost connected the you know yesterday sitting down with the the president and CEO of strategy and him saying in the interview that when they first went to their accountants and attorneys for strike their preferred shares um they basically like laughed at them they're like you can't do that they're like no we can do this and this is like just the beginning so you think about like they can sell mstr shares at the market it's a $21 billion plan for each one of these but let's use the 20 for round numbers 20 billion in shares at the market 20 billion in convertible debt 20 billion in preferred shares what if they come out with one or two other products I mean think about last fall they issued almost they raised almost almost 20 billion somewhere between 15 20 billion and like 40 days so what if they raised a 100 billion in 40 days and what what if several companies end up doing that eventually and then you have nation states at play so that's that's what the iteration and and The Game Theory and and these additional now like onstage conversations is is what I took away from it yeah Echo all of that very um very enthusiastic group I would say probably 100 150 people total so it was pretty intimate um industry leaders politicians legal folks um and shout out to to the Bitcoin policy Institute it was a very high signal event uh great keynote speakers and some some interesting discussions um hard not to come away from that day being incredibly bullish despite what you know again the near-term noise around the price movement has been um there was a palpable sense of uh to to quote the dawn of winning like we this is this is what winning looks like um you know having this this forum in the nation's capital where there's tremendous bipartisan support for embracing this asset um and really you know I think a big part of this and why Trump in particular and people surrounding him are so excited about it is because it's it's completely sort of the antithesis of what was the status quo around this asset and the industry and um you know reshoring a lot of the Innovation like you know in the past few years we saw great companies literally shut their doors in the United States because it was so hostile and adversarial and so I think you know that alone is a massively bullish and positive signal that people in the admin uh people in in DC understand that this is an area of innovation that we can't we can't afford to just lose um and have you know great companies and entrepreneurs and Founders leave America because they don't feel safe operating here and so I think you know it was just great to see sort of this this you know moment particularly you know right after the executive order from last week there was there was just a sense of like we are we are back on the right trajectory here um in terms of you know uh this country really being in support of the asset and The Innovation that uh surrounds the industry so overall a great event um Sailor Talk was great VC had some some uh some great comments around Bitcoin being the hurdle rate which we uh at early riters have have been reiterating for over a year um so nice to see that that that narrative is is manifesting um and permeating across various thought leaders um the bit bonds presentation was interesting as well I think it's um you know you're going to you're going to start to see a number of um sort of plans or suggestions around the the clause in the executive order around budget neutral strategies there's a there's a number of things that we could do could you also before doing that could you also just Define what bit bonds are for people who might not be familiar Yeah so basically um you know it's effectively creating new debt but backing you know in in The Proposal that Andrew hones from New Market Capital was was putting forth I think it's 10% um goes into Bitcoin and so what that allows you to do is it allows you to lower the interest rate on the bond effectively um and so it uh in some of what he was presenting you know part of his argument and his thesis is like you know if we issue a ton of bit bonds um this will be massively ACC creative to the United States balance sheet over the long term and he had some projections around bitcoin's price and you know if you if you are projecting you know and you think bitcoin's price is going to go up over the long term and you're backing government debt with the Bitcoin um you know there is a there's a trajectory there that would allow you to offset a lot of the the debt that we have um and so that is that was the core of his thesis was we could basically um you know chop away at that 36 trillion in debt by issuing this new form of debt which actually has a component that is going to appreciate over time as opposed to debase um um and so that's at a high level sort of the the thinking around it and it's you know it's not too dissimilar from what sailor's doing right like he's issuing debt that's backed by Bitcoin so it's it's a similar concept um but it would just be you know led by the US government yeah I think it's fascinating and it's not widely understood yet how Bitcoin could be a creative uh and offset the debt issue that we find ourselves in because for a while there's been discussions of of what is the productivity Miracle uh that may get us out of this mess and maybe it's the Bitcoin Miracle right because it's still a$2 trillion asset and there's 900 trillion probably quadrillion now at this point of global wealth and there's $37 trillion of US debt so it's not unreasonable to think that Bitcoin will grow from two trillion to 10 to 50 to 100 trillion dollar and that might happen over a decade it might happen over two decades but that number will become will grow even though the debt is increasing so rapidly and exponentially at the federal level post GFC Bitcoin might actually grow faster which is a wild thing to think about and and that was included in some of these forecasts in the presentation was like there was an assumption of over the next 20 years that 36 trillion will grow to over over 50 trillion um so that that is part of the thinking I think there's one caveat or Kicker like key word is for all of that because it's something I've been thinking about more is um recapitalization the the the Bitcoin miracle I think is right I think it's recapitalization of productive debt right because unproductive debt and there's a lot of it you can throw any kind of Bitcoin in the in it and doesn't make it like I always just anchor back to the crazy whatever groman throws out I think it's two trillion that was like just effectively like wiped away in the past 20 years in the war in Afghanistan like you what's the gross like what's the productivity that's going to out like the asset will grow but if you owe the interest and you have this debt it's just going to grow alongside it but if you have businesses and this ties into like early writers and Tim joining on the advisor side of like this notion of there's going to be a lot of opportunities to infuse Bitcoin into debt structures but productive like where there's productive um businesses that have that and they can offset it via the BT sitting for the debt accumulating it being lean but that's the one caveat it's like you can't just throw Bitcoin in any kind of debt and it just fixes it you have to have productive businesses um and you know you make the case the US will be a productive business yeah it's interesting too how that would tie into the stated objective then of trying to get interest rates lower so there's I don't I don't think we talked about it in too much detail yet but $7 trillion of federal debt mature ing over the coming months and so the US government if you're operating as a business you want less expenses right so the US government wants less expenses they were to refinance that debt it would be an absurd number given where interest rates are currently so it's interesting to think about Trump has said publicly several times now that he wants lower rates you know the Federal Reserve likes to position themselves as independent um that's Up For Debate but they haven't lowered rat yet and I think there might only be one or two perhaps that are forecasted this year but Bitcoin will play a critical role in the recapitalization of America and so I'll be interested to see what happens over the coming months of course we'll talk about it on the show as well but the US government wants to get the interest rates down because they have $7 trillion of debt to refinance bit bonds potentially plays a role in that um where the rates come down because the Federal Reserve is lowering them but also maybe because we have the hardest asset that ever existed to back part of that debt as well uh and that may bring in new buyers of the debt so exciting times I'm curious to see what comes of that yeah I mean if you if I think if you extrapolate at all the insatiable demand that we've seen for mstr bonds I think there would be a ton of global demand for us issued bit bonds I think that's a safe assumption I would like to buy my first bit Bond you take out you take out a loan yet I knew it was going to come off I haven't yet we're we're at a good price for you Market has given you another gift I know I guess it's time I just sleep so well right now and I I don't want to uh not sleep well anymore but uh you know I'm going to figure that out I'm going to come to the show here pretty soon I'll have a loan out for uh everyone to be Journey yeah for TLT entertain and purposes um one thing I wanted to talk about though was the caner Fitzgerald announcement of the partnership with uh Anchorage and copper so I don't think there's anything there yet in terms of uh there's nothing there yet in terms of this business being built yet but it was at least an announcement to let the market know where caner is headed and so they want to initially commit $2 billion of financing to institutional investors uh you know providing Lending to institutional investors that hold Bitcoin and I guess other digital assets as well and they selected uh Anchorage digital and copper as infrastructure and custody Partners would be curious to hear what the group's thoughts are just on this move I know Howard leck's been very vocal as an advocate for Bitcoin and one other thing to call out as well is on their balance sheet they have a ton of exposure to micro strategy and um I think it's over a billion dollars in micro strategy shares but anyways what do you guys think of caner stepping into the ring making this announcement you know their Partners Etc it seems like um I mean it's it's an announcement of you know uh the first steps of a plan basically they have concepts of a plan because if you remember you know lutnick first announced this idea you know almost a year ago now in Nashville at the Bitcoin conference and we didn't really hear anything about it since then and so I think this is just um a preliminary step to actually put that process and and sort of new business line for caner into into real motion here um but exciting nevertheless yeah I think that's that's actually like a key point to bring up is like these individuals that are at the highest seats um of power that are creating the Frameworks for this asset class are behind the scenes in their business dealings making very huge moves that we've never seen right like so the thing don't uh you know show put like put your money where your mouth is and ultimately caner uh there was actually a really Italian podcast that he did before I think um I think it was before the the um before the I think it was it was before the inauguration I think it was even before um the election where he it was very like at the end of this pod he's just like yeah Bitcoin I have hundreds of millions and it'll soon be billions of dollars it was just like foretold and um if that's true that they know number goes up well then naturally number goes up requires trading you got to have infrastructure around exchanges and it also is going to require the ability to lend against the asset and obviously like I think Stables play a part into that and so caner being an equity holder and tether the stable coin stuff that's coming about and then also then putting this facility of1 to2 billion dollar setting up where they're going to lend against the asset it all just makes sense that they're preparing for this emergent kind of like growth in not only the number of the dollar terms of what a Bitcoin cost but then also the amount of new entrance coming in from institutions all the way to individuals yeah at the end of the day it's all about incentives right and so everyone is self-interested and when you have people at the highest level that have material allocations to something then they're naturally going to make business decisions that will benefit them I I think that's that's the simplest way to distill any of this one thing that we should get when we get an older gentleman on the Pod like somebody that's you know been around the block for a while I'd be curious I think this is probably true it's just we're younger maybe haven't maybe you guys can tell me if you know like because we're so glued into what's happening at this new Administration level and and digital assets like has it been seen before where the like arms length business dealings are happening and like you know so because I think there's probably a component of social media and it just gets brought to light and there's the uh you know there's the there's the researchers for for kind words uh that are out there sleuthing through the internet to to call this stuff out and see it but I just wonder if this is just an anomaly with this new Administration or this is something that happens every four years where different people they hand off their business dealings and then they kind of know what's coming from a regulatory perspective and they Place their chips uh accordingly yeah I mean I don't know for sure sure but I do know just you know with Wall Street in general right you have a position in something and then you go on CNBC and you talk about why it's a great position um or why you want a certain outcome like I think of Bill Amman in 2020 where he just went on and started crying about uh what was happening in markets and the economy but he had like a massive Shore position on so I don't think any of this is new uh I think just there's a this is how people oper everyone's self-interested at the end of the day there is certainly some distinction between what is legal and what's illegal but Wall Street will always talk their book well but I mean just to take it a step further it's like Trump's children are literally managing his finances in the same where Howard leck's two boys are managing it's like you just you go to dinner like every night or whatever and it's just like hey uh you know we're gonna get this thing approved or not like it's C gonna get his pardon because I got this investment you know like it's not it's just a it's very interesting and I've never like really paid attention all this stuff um so I don't know there has to be like context where this happens every but it just feels so like blatant outright and nobody's like questioning or apologizing for it's just like it is what it is we're gonna world of Liberty 5 we're going to lunch you know all coins we're going to do the whole thing and you know we're GNA have fun Liberty F whatever it's called they uh they are down significantly on some of the the Investments that they made probably a month month and a half ago like into ethereum and all these other altcoins I think they're down like 60 to 70% on that portfolio yeah it's it's not like it's not like it benefited them not yet not yet speaking of down significantly I'm not down significantly but uh I think I might be on the red uh on my strategy position so Tim cman oh no I want to hear uh I want to hear what the group had to say this week in the mstr true north what uh what were you guys talking about with strategy also secondary question if your price prediction Bitcoin is a million by the end of 2025 what is mstr at the end of 2025 a million maybe2 $3,000 a share on mstr um everyone was bullish Parish yeah I mean it's only a 10x so yeah I mean I'm not glad be a 20x if it's yeah he's saying $30,000 a share by the end of the year so so that's who was saying that gladiator all right well yeah yeah I want a serious person Tim here here's here's the reality to uh quote Ryan mcginness I was talking earlier about how theoretically strategy could come out with like a hundred billion dollar Capital plan they keep iterating like that's possible you have the bit bonds that we were talking about and I think the example that Andrew put up there was like issuing 200 billion I mean you just throw a couple other examples like that in there whether it's companies whether it's a country doing bit bonds before you get to that trillion dollar number and right now bitcoin's only a two trillion dollar market cap I mean I think that should illustrate how early we are and and kind of what's potentially at play over the next couple of quarters so Jackson should he should add to his MS our position is that what you're saying not Financial advice yes I'm just going to have to get wrecked for the uh for the show's purpose I'm just going to take out like a massive loan and just dump all my Bitcoin and buy micro strategy um some like stats and strats Yeah Tim I I like secretly want Jackson use as much leverage as possible so he has to work for onramp for the rest of his life it's not a secret anymore um all right where do we go from here that's the question that everyone wants to know one thing uh Michael maybe you wanted to discuss was what's going on with binance I haven't gotten a chance to look into it much I think you know you were able to dig into it a little bit but anything you discerned from that I guess a could you just level set and tell us what what it was and then any thoughts on it I mean I guess like high level there's just not enough infrastructure in the space so we see it I think there's rumors of a lot of m&a happening um there's a lot of public uh IPOs coming up that are rumored as well I think bitgo I think these rep public that came out uh bitgo Kraken and maybe one other firm um maybe it's Gemini in like targeting q1 2026 so a lot of appetite to get to the public markets now that this is been uh drisk and then a lot of bets just being made around um Capital infus Ms getting exposure to get close to it right kind of first step in an acquisition sometimes is get exposure do the diligence figure out what it what makes sense and then acquisition you're close there so um there was two versions of binance that came up this past week there was the GMX uh investment that we touched on which is just kind of like Global arms race on getting uh access to these businesses that are going to be you know the future infrastructure frankly I think we talk about a lot on this pod about you know it's and this stuff is so like alien when you really break it down from custody to managing volatility and everything in between that you're really going to need a native firm to help you and support your traditional business so there's that aspect and then um there's just rumors Sor laying around since I think the end of last year that Trump's team was looking at binance us and binance us has been mired in a bunch of of like Regulatory and um just wrapped up in a bunch of red tape because of where CZ was in with him getting I think it was a seven Monon sentence I don't even actually know if they fully I should know this but if they fully um been you know like shut down the business or stopped operations I did talk to somebody from there that was key in helping that business go from like 50 to 500 people and it was it I this is all public but that they were like top three uh exchange by volume globally and in 21 so they're the real deal um but obviously the administration and all the things associated kind of slowed that down with CZ so Trump was rumored to be talking with them or their their team so I guess it's Trump uh rumored like making some acquisition or or or investment and then uh I guess it came up that also in parallel and I think they're denying it but then the Wall Street journals like has firsthand um reporting that that cz's lobbying to get a part in and so it just brings up that similar thing like well if you're going to you know make the investment the part in because I would imagine CZ still majority uh shareholder in binance us and so it kind of makes sense where like UA has to go and they put $2 billion dollar in because he can command what he wants another Sovereign probably wants exposure to that um but then there strategic relevance of that part of the world in the same way binance us is a segregated entity and that if uh you know Trump's Camp wants exposure to that and all the things associated right there's not that many exchanges reputable exchanges You' say coinbase is one of them then um you may want exposure to that because it's going to be relevant for an acquisition perspective or just to be a market leader as digital assets become more adopted in the US yeah I think it's generally positive from the like the competitive perspective of you what you're referencing around like coinbase is has largely dominated the US market from an exchange perspective and B had had tried at you know various points to infiltrate the market and and really compete and due to all the the red tape and um hostility towards them they weren't really able to do that so I think from that perspective alone I see it as a positive sign of like yeah like let let these large crypto native firms uh compete domestically here um give people more options that's always better um and so yeah I think uh it's more signaling than anything because it's not like Finance needs the money um so it's just you know various sovereigns getting uh getting their hands into the you know the infrastructure of the picks and shovels as you referenced well but it reminds me of um Cancer's investment in tether we all know tether doesn't need the money but it's like I you know it's like I need your blessing to come operate here and so it's this pay for play style thing and that's where it goes back to like how much has that happened before versus now in real time but either way it doesn't matter it's just the economic reality um it's just super fascinating to see that um Tim I'm curious if you have thoughts on that I actually wanted to see what if you guys had any reaction to about an hour ago the genius act stablecoin bill passed out of Senate Banking Committee do you want to share what that bill is or what yeah uh I just know it's the stable coin bill it's about all I know it seems important I mean that's it seems like that's a priority for them I I think that was the way they've been signaling and posturing that they want to get that done first um and so it's I think it's I would be surprised if that doesn't pass because it's super uh blatantly aligned with us interest SP spreading dollar dominance leaning into stable coins putting rules of the road and and Frameworks around what people can do I mean I haven't looked at the intricacies of the but um that's that's not surprising to me that that's going to be be pushed forward we should follow Stables more uh they're the least interesting but they're also the most interesting like they're least interesting from an innovation from Bitcoin or the value prop but they're the most interesting because it's obviously what they're in invested in um getting for dollar dominance and all things but it's actually super scary when you think about it because I think what like the middle of the curve we'll think about um digital surveillance is like we're already surveilled right like oh our credit card and all the things but the reality is it's all disperate data right so you go to your Banks they don't talk to each other Banks unless you get some kind of court order you have your Visa you like all these things and the data isn't all like compiled and collapsed onto each other and so think about if you're actually have a playbook for Bitcoins growth and all the things we just talked about well not only you going to streamline the liquidity via these Stables but you're going to streamline all the data all the analysis all the choke points all the ways you're going to cut off everything via these Stables so it's actually like it's going to pump the market but it's also just going to provide so much more oversight and overreach versus what people so it's like there's just a dance happening right now that um it's bullish but it's also kind of bearish from an orwellian perspective because where all this kind of goes is a lot more te technocracy than people are expecting uh that's for a different show find out next week on the last trade well we got Jackson I wanted to throw a TBS there's something else to chat about which is um really elucidating the fact that we are so early and not from like us as individuals it's this notion of if you are active in this space you're a business professional whether you want to build or join a firm I met with banks this past week There's this notion we we can talk briefly about it with the OC kind of resending a lot of the um uh like letters that they sent out around custody stables and one other thing that we're just kind of hindering this is pre this is post Sab this is just like uh letters that they send that are letters but they effectively keep you from ever doing anything in the space because you got to look over your shoulder but the problem is that similarly with banks and when I going to throw it to you Jackson on the ra front is both sides are proxies for like um this notion of because the government was always involved and it could be banned or this notion that could be banned they just like have not paid attention they've just always assumed they don't need a strategy and they've just been caught flat-footed and they all have no plans or ideas outside of like .1% that has just been active knowing that this is has inevitability and so just curious like Jackson on your side on the uh the Raa side like what have you seen what's your experience there to help like just listeners understand that they really have no plan yet outside of like maybe we'll do an ETF and then I can touch a little bit if it makes sense on the banking side yeah on the banking side one thing we can come back to there is just an interesting stat we'll tie into what we'll discuss is there was about 8,000 uh commercial banks in the US before the great financial crisis and now there's about 4500 so it's like over 30% decline in commercial banks in less than two decades so that'll tie into the bank discussion on the ra side there's a massive opportunity so if there are any advisers that work at independent Ras that's really where the opportunity is for now I think the wirehouses are going to be slower to adopt they have been certainly with the ETF in the past year but if you think about Bitcoin and its distribution right now it's 70% held by individuals and so these are individuals that in many cases have pretty significant exposures and Bitcoin right now is about $80,000 that number 70% held by individuals will likely decline over time uh just as you have Nations States institutional allocators step in but I do think by nature of how the asset is currently distributed and also the investor Behavior with it as well where a lot of folks who own Bitcoin are longterm and they don't really want to sell it we see this all the time with our client base they want to hold it for Generations which is why inheritance is such a big value prop at the business but beyond that what that means then is you have 70% held by individuals these are people that have couple hundred thousand couple million couple 10 millions of dollars in Bitcoin and maybe they haven't engaged with a financial planner or a wealth manager before but maybe they do but their financial planner doesn't know anything about Bitcoin so it's kind of souring their relationship since it's becoming a larger portion of their portfolio over time it's just leading to worse outcomes because the adviser doesn't know how to advise on the allocation they don't know how to think about it from a trust perspective and so where this ties into an opportunity and what we're seeing with Ras is any raia that is Bitcoin not even first but Bitcoin friendly and Bitcoin knowledgeable and can speak to their clients about what the asset class is how do you think about it from a planning perspective how does it fit into a portfolio there's just such a tremendous opportunity here because there's probably I could probably count on both my hands firms that actually have a very defined Bitcoin strategy within the independent ra space and there's thousands of firms in the country so one thing I would point to is if you're working within one of these organizations and we can be a resource just on the purely on the education side if we could just talk to people in your firm and explain the asset class independent of even working with us beyond that there's an opportunity here for advisers to really lead the charge a for helping people that have material Bitcoin exposures today but then also being able to really set the stage and Pioneer what this will look like within the broader wealth management space so I think it's incredibly exciting it's incredibly early as well um it ties back into where we talked a little bit of earlier we're kind of moving from this point of skepticism within traditional Finance within Wall Street politics to embracing we've we've crossed the chasm at this point and things are going to move very quickly so it's just prudent it's wise to kind of get ahead of it because the opportunity is now there's probably a window like we're already seeing this a lot with raas but there's still a window of opportunity that but that's going to close certainly over the course of probably the next year or two yeah I think that's one of the biggest themes that we got L as sleep by is accepting that centralization um is organic or natural and will continue to persist so whether it's raas and aggregation whether it's Banks you mentioned um the 8500 that EX exist the reality is if you probably looked at the AUM of those Banks compared to the top four it's like a Proto distributed right um roughly when you think about big Tech magnificent 7 uh I was again having a conversation with somebody that works in retail and explaining like their shop now looks like U the aggregation of like their shop looks like seven other shops but in one because it's a big box retailer and they ultimately had to like everyone's gone out of business so you think there's a section for Radio Shack like this aggregation is in organic pic and it just comes down to when you have centralized money monetary policy it will aggregate but when you have a decentralized money it will disaggregate it'll be out to the to the margins to the edges and so what Jackson shared is the individuals hold the vast majority of BTC at least for the foreseeable future they will continue to because they're the quickest to make the move to adopt larger and larger positions because it's a single individual and if that's to be the case the individual is who you want to cater to but nobody in this space actually caters to the individuals and that means you have to build products and services for those those individuals are by Nature the most sophisticated simply because again they still hold the asset so just by holding it long enough you're saying that you're educated because you didn't lose it with binance or FTX Celsius etc etc and so that's really the opportunity on the ra similar to the banking side is what the b& and large banks are going to do is try to play the same game of aggregation they'll make an acquisition they'll of a bitgo or whoever and then that aggregation will be like you know sub custodial modeled out to Challenger Banks and it'll all look the same and it'll look like omnius and it'll just be a natural way that they traditionally manage assets but from an RA or a challenger Bank perspective you can actually offer services that are uh more aligned with what somebody will actually want for their personal wealth meaning like seg segregated Wallets on chain multi-institution custody the ability to lend but in a way that is a creative and makes sense for the longevity of holding that asset not putting it at risk um so I just see this as an insane opportunity and it's going to be a land grab because ultimately those first Ras or banks that are able to say hey not only do we have uh not only do we are saying this isn't a stigmatized asset it's not radioactive like we're friendly to it but then they build best-in-class differentiated products are going to build they're future prooof in their business they're going to be Market leaders um but it's we're still so early in that that that cause or that you know kind of working through it totally well before we wrap up is there a single point of failure of the week I didn't come across one but I also have been spending a very limited amount of time on Twitter because it's just uh icess pool on there I have a sad one um so like at the end of the day I guess we'll do um like what on provides peace of mind that that's the ultimate catch if you're coming to us you want peace of mind from getting educated so you protect your wealth all the way to peace of mind that all day long there's different attack vectors in your exposure and um we had a client that I worked with previously he found us uh worked with Jackson didn't even know he actually had on board at Jackson made an introduction and had a good conversation with him about two months ago and he was very jovial excited work with us recognized where we came from the ethos that under uh pinned what we did um and so it was a good conversation and sadly uh this past week we found out that he passed away and I was looking into his obituary and it was really sad because he Brave guy that never told anyone that he had uh terminal cancer aggressive terminal cancer except for his partner but he came to us a few months ago with the realization that he didn't want he wanted to give he wanted to have peace of mind but he also wanted his partner to have peace of mind to be able to find his savings and it really just underpin this thing that we talk to individuals about but when it like hits home when it happens and then somebody comes and you're able to not only take care of it but not have another thing to worry about uh when that happens with the laundry list of other things that you have to deal with when someone passes um is the one that comes to mind that I think is important it's sad but it's it is a true it's what we've been talking about we joke around a lot about the plastic devices and all the other things but the reality is like this is people's wealth this is their livelihoods this is Generation capital for individuals that they've worked their whole lives for and it's the last thing they want on their mind is to be able to go to sleep going to sleep at night trying to worry about are they going to be able to pass it uh we have a lot of other things to worry about in our lives yeah yeah incredibly sad um really good guy but it was well said Michael um you know none of us and people listening you generally don't have plans for anything to happen happen but you just never know and it really does become about peace of mind at the end of the day so well said um to to finish up on a more positive or A humorous joke we we may or may not see you all next week in the last trade do you want to do you want any guesses as to why I have no idea no idea what you're talking about well if people don't like And subscribe to the podcast I'm just not going to show up I'm not going to get out of bed so what I what I would like to see is some more people subscribe to the podcast more people throw us some likes that like button whether it's on Spotify Apple podcast if we're adding value would go a long way to to show the Gratitude if you could do that or else I'm just not going to do the show anymore and if you comment in YouTube If you comment on YouTube Jackson will will um go and respond to each one uh and next week there's a lot of individuals coming into Austin for uh South by Southwest so if you're around shoot us a note we'll see if we can uh meet up we'll be downtown having meetings with folks in town all right maybe we'll see you next week find out thanks for listening to this week's episode of the show if you found the information valuable please share the episode with a friend or leave a rating on your favorite podcast app all the links we discussed in today's show will be in the show notes inside your podcast app before we finish a quick reminder that onr media is for informational and entertainment purposes only and nothing should be construed as investment or legal advice regardless of where you are on your Bitcoin Journey we'd love to hear from you visit onramp bitcoin.com cont to schedule a consultation with one of our Private Client advisers