The Ultimate Savings Tech: How Insurance Fortifies Bitcoin's Promise

what you're telling me is that music is about to stop and we're going to be left holding the biggest bag of borous exent ever assembled in the history of God 1974 1987 92 97 2000 and whatever we want to call this it's all just the same thing over and over we can't help ourselves I say when we [Music] sell I say when we sell well well well we're back we decided to show up this week for the last trade for people who tuned in last week it was very unclear at the end of the last episode if we were going to continue the show but clearly the support was there and so we brought in braam constein as our honorary fifth guest of the week so we have Tim cman Michael tanguma Brian cabis and braam constein braam how are you thanks for joining us today oh good guys yeah I'm super happy to uh be honorary member of this band yeah this is uh this is going to be exciting we have a lot planned from the media side um but I think the plan ROM you can correct me if I'm wrong is uh you'll join once a month or once every couple weeks uh to catch up on the latest and jam with uh the group here which is going to be super exciting yeah so thanks for having me guys excited yeah thank you so let's take a look at the price chart I was really hoping we wouldn't be in the 80s again this week because I think we've just been pulling up the on-ramp terminal for weeks now and we've been staring at the same price and so it's a great opportunity for people who are under allocated which probably most of you listening right now now are under allocated so it's good to ante up buy some more Bitcoin why the prices are low but they're not going to be low for much longer and Brian cabis is going to tell you why right now Brian why are the prices low right now and and why are they not going to be low 6 months from now well you don't even have to listen to me we've got folks from Black Rock going on CNBC and basically saying the market is wrong and you know elucidating the the facts around bitcoin's monetary properties and the fact that it really is a riskof asset and I think you know one of the talking head interviewers was like well you know what if we enter a recession isn't that bad for bit coin and risk on assets and he was just like no like it's actually that would be great for Bitcoin because it's a non-sovereign asset can't be debased it's actually you know pretty bullish if if we were to enter a recession which seems to be people's sort of base case at this point that um you know everything from tariffs to everything else in the in sort of the macro picture is that you know equities are probably going to continue to to Trend lower here for a little bit um and then at some point there's going to be some sort of uh flip to quantitative quantitative easing and even pal yesterday at at fomc had some comments that sort of signaled that you know he there was one quote around there's just more uncertainty in markets generally which you know is a very vague comment um sort of a throwaway comment but at the same time it is a bit of a signal that you know the the pivot to uh easing maybe sooner than we think and also if you just look at like Global liquidity that already pivoting back upwards and you know that's you know uh one of the more sort of uh High signal metrics you can look at in terms of correlation to bitcoin's price is just uh the level of global liquidity and that that is now Rising again um because there's you know while we've been in quote unquote quantitative tightening for some time now there's been sort of stealth QE happening behind the scenes and then xus we've already sort of flipped to QE in various countries um and so yeah all of that is to say it's kind of wild we're still in the 80s um but it's just a it's a rem reminder that most people have no idea what Bitcoin is they don't understand it they don't understand that it's a riskof asset and that this is you know very mispriced at the moment Brian the chief tea leaves officer at onramp I appreciate you breaking down yesterday's um presser from the Federal Reserve to totally agree with what you just said there Braum what are your thoughts what have you been paying attention to in the past couple of days doesn't have to be about the FED I mean we all know uh there's fed speak and they do a lot of it but what are your thoughts about where we are currently we're at $85,000 per Bitcoin what do you think well while Brian was talking I'm just I was thinking about something that I say quite often which is Bitcoin is an asymmetrical opportunity based on publicly uh available information and um you know Jackson like like you said like or or Brian like not many people understand Bitcoin yet which is logical because uh I think it's uh it's you know the whole what is money topic and uh you know understanding that before you even understand why you should move into into Bitcoin with all the characteristics that that it has right like it's it's a hard thing to understand but when you see uh what's his name bo Hines he's I think yeah executive director of digital assets for the US government he says the us is going to acquire as much Bitcoin as we can possibly get so that is like out there in The Ether and we are at 86k which is like the new 58k I don't know guys like it's extremely extremely early and it keeps fascinating me because yeah again it's publicly available information so um I think that is actually what's been uh on my mind the last week is like yeah I just I I I I cannot believe we are still there and so yeah I think part of the component is like there's a one a general cognitive dissonance with the reality and the facts and the public information that you're referencing but there's also like a rationalization for someone on zero where even though the US government is embracing Bitcoin they will rationalize that to themselves as oh this is just Trump like I don't really believe that he he believes in this thing um it's just a move to you know scratch the back of his donors from the from the campaign like there's all these different ways that people can rationalize it in their brain if they're on zero where they can say well I haven't missed it I'm not you know I'm not late this thing is still not real yeah I agree well and and what you say with the public information we see we see drone Powell blaming inflation on the Terrace that didn't even start right like just if you see this clip and you're and you're kind of paying attention like this is pure gaslighting right like it's literally it's in your it's in your face and I listened to I think it was Jordy fisser with Pomano one of the latest videos and they talked about like how you know the whole restructuring and and and the economic approach of the current um Administration um is like an easy target to blame things that are all were already in motion right so blaming the tariffs and Etc and it's fascinating again that you in the same week you see Powell do that um yeah it's just a just a mirage B basically but yeah if if you're following the guys in the suits sorry sorry Tim but you know the guys in the suits on TV um yeah you're not getting the right information and again I think that's why it's so hard to uh yeah just Grog Bitcoin and and and um yeah kind of like Get over that hump I think there's two aspects to call out is one is we think grock Bitcoin we think like change the world material allocation and most people cannot fathom how that's even possible so they just won't even like look at it to even get off of the zero and the other one that's the most fascinating and it's I've learned this just from the experience the past few years building on ramp is um the majority of the market and we know this is like consensus driven they're just always going to go with a crowd and it reminded me of bonds in Bitcoin they're like inverse uh they're Inver inverse mirages right like you have bonds and everyone just knows their negative yielding that there's not enough support and liquidity and everyone just plays the game and still allocates and then on the other side people look at this 15-year-old asset that continues to go up into the right it's been the best performing and also will everyone will look you dead in the eye and say it's a Ponzi and what happens if like Quantum right like there is just a natural mechanism with inertia and until you get to a certain amount of like that penetration of bonser upon Ponzi and bitcoin's not you're always going to have this like occur and then that's just going to flip eventually at some point ideally sooner so Jackson can move out of wherever he complains he lives thank you question about that guys because I I I agree I also think it's kind of like this this Fiat thinking unconscious right like it's this Zero Sum game mentality always trying to find like uh you know this is why it wouldn't work etc right I think we are on the total opposite side of of that with regards to um to bitcoin but I I think people will still fade it even as the price goes up so maybe a fun question like do you think because I think like even if we're at a million there will still people that say like no it's a Ponzi this will never work etc so like what's the price where with what you just said Michael where the general public is like oh damn I should actually pay attention what do you guys think I think it's less about the price and I think it goes back to Michael was it used that said it consensus around the asset and so I think as soon as we start to see States adopt it with within the US where I think at The Sovereign level where the US government actually finds budget neutral ways to acquire more of it and then you see other countries follow suit and a lot of countries are doing this kind of behind closed doors already I think once you have these large Sovereign balance sheets allocating to it and then you also have at a more micro level States townships smaller communities identifying Bitcoin as a way to better the lives of their constituents it'll become more obvious I think until then um until there's not more let's say social proof or there's not more institutions that people people want to follow the lead of it'll continue to be this Echo chamber microcosm ecosystem of that we exist in currently but I do think that we're really close to that shifting and it's going to happen incredibly fast um I also think um I think like gold parody I think is an important sort of line of demarcation for people that are like again rationalizing it to themselves why it's not real if it's you know at parody with gold and the thesis for a long time that they've heard is it's digital gold that that there is some sort of confirmation there um that's very hard to ignore um so I think that would be that would be an important point but up until then I think there's always going to be detractors and Skeptics because if they're on zero and they just see it going up that's going to make them more Angry like that's going to make them you know even more hardened in their stance potentially what what if I tell you they'll adopted and everything we're talking about has less about bit it has nothing to do with Bitcoin um the way it'll happen more than likely and I've been thinking about this a lot is uh it's the best meme we've probably ever had in this space because it encapsulates what Bitcoin does it's just a savings technology and we saw this in uh Japan I think or not Japan Hong Kong in like the L 2019 like nobody used signal there and then the second that there was those um like protests and all the things associated signal went through the roof it's like once you have a need for the underlying product then it just makes it so much easier and so with inflation running rampid and then once the market credibly understands that it's not a speculative asset it is a savings technology then you can naturally just go into it and you don't have to understand how it works why it works what it is why it's a million why it's 3 million you just know that as it compares to your local currency pair it goes up and lets you buy more eggs than less I think that will be the ultimate driver not Bitcoin but Michael it's so volatile how could you save in Bitcoin one thing I wanted to talk about was I saw a great update or or pack of charts from Charlie Bello from creative planning and what we've seen in the United States over the past at least two decades probably three with the rise of passive investing and mutual funds and the equity Market becoming the proxy for savings at least here in the United States is there have been a ton of draw downs and pretty significant draw Downs in the equity Market but that doesn't mean that people still don't use us equities to save their wealth so in the 16-year bull market since March of 2009 so the low of the great financial crisis the S&P 500 is up over 1,000% so those are nominal gains we know that the real returns are lower if you count for debasement but it's still a nominal 16% annualized return and over that period so over that 16-year period there's 30 Corrections of 5% or more 10 Corrections of 10% or more four Corrections of 20% or more and one correction of 30% or more and so Bitcoin is still more volatile than that but the point is if you have a long-term bias and you want to save your capital and preserve your wealth over the long term you just ignore the volatility like if you have a financial planner and you're worried about the covid crash in March of 2020 they're going to tell you well calm down you don't own your equities because you need the money today you own it because you want to retire 10 years from now or you want to retire 20 years from now and so it's the same thing with Bitcoin I don't know why it's that hard to understand if you take a long-term bias to the asset class everything will be okay it's the same exact thing and so that's really the critical thing to think about is if you're saving if you're viewing Bitcoin as a savings technology think about it for four years or more most people that are involved are thinking about it longer and it's it is providing the same purpose and vehicle that other asset classes are but it's even better at doing that just to take the other side of that though to to uh empathize is ultimately gold like we can't fully understand because we never been on a gold standard the amount of profound like effects it has from a societal Even in our DNA there's a reason where we like intrinsically like just people still hold gold love it that happened over thousands of years what we're seeing is happening over 15 years a a real a net new Global Reserve like uh substrate of all economic activity happening before our eyes it's so radical and hard to pick up that to your point Jackson it's true but at the same time you can't touch it you can't feel it you don't people don't know what money is so everything we talk about here while it's relevant it still goes back to meeting people where they're at and helping them get there because it's just still so hard to pick up all of those I agree and I'll take the other side of your other side because equities haven't been the preferred way to save for the past 100 or 200 years it hasn't been as quick as 15 years of Bitcoin but these are still things that happened Generation by generation so if you look back a hundred years ago people are using precious metals to some capacity to save um government bonds became popular as well especially around or after the Great Depression because people are generally worried or scared to park their money in so these things do change over time I think it's really only been the boomer generation past 40 years or so where the equities and real estate well real estate is longer but equities at least have been the preferred savings vehicle so I think you're right I agree with you but I also think that 5 years from now it'll be widely understood that Bitcoin is a critical part of Saving for the long term I hope so I think the the one caveat is like equities are just a derivative of you know um price exposure to a business and you have a basket like these are all things that are easily understood from a cash flows perspective and why you would move over from bonds to something that can accrete higher nominal yields to say this under line jumps is that easy but your point your point is taking that it's mimetic so sooner somebody recognizes they can protect their wealth it'll be it should be quicker maybe this is a contrary take to both of your takes but I was thinking about the the the gold parity I actually I I debated the huge gold bug on one of the biggest podcasts in my in my country and uh he was pounding the table like oh it's 5 6 thousand years old and it's used Etc and uh um then I asked him like okay but this like okay yes this is the characteristic of gold that is superior to that of Bitcoin right just the track record Etc but if that's the only thing you're you're using like is is gold a meme coin that's what I asked him right because it's about the story because it's about yeah the Egyptians used it Etc and so I think eventually every ad said also now Jackson you're talking about the equities like it's a story it's like hey this is a way for you to to build wealth and and maybe when you're early to something you can actually verify what it is right okay we're early to equities Etc in that in that time but like uh over time kind of like that factual um verification let's call it like it kind of Fades away and then it just becomes a story if that makes sense so you go to some financial advisor and they're like yeah you got to diversify in in in in gold and in equities Etc and then you're like oh yeah okay sure I'm just going to follow this financial advisor where whereas with Bitcoin everything is verifiable for you that's also I think why it's so hard to understand it's it's it's so opposed to all the other options that you have to save and and store value that it also kind of like sounds too good to be true if that makes sense you know like yeah you can verify everything for yourself oh really well all these other things that I can use I actually need other people for it that makes sense it's it's a good point around the track record because if that's if that's what you're hanging your hat on on like why gold is superior to bitcoin like that's inherently a blind spot to anything new right like you're you're you're inherently excluding anything that isn't you know doesn't have a Thousand-Year track record which just is not like intellectually honest yeah yeah I mean the the reality is Gold's still the basee reserve currency even though we can't exchange it it still is like that's a fact and it's not a story about gold it's because gold has objective uh properties that make it the be had made it the best form of money and Bitcoin has objective property it's not a story that Bitcoin has value it's because there's certain objective properties that individuals Like Us come to the conclusion what we want it as our money so I think like it's all relevant on the story but it's still these are just deeply rooted in in economic reality like nation states have the the majority of their wealth and how they store it not in bonds it's in in Gold so we have to be like truthful as well of like what it is because people have to build back up to how we got here and if it's like a story then like what you end up in the calanis Stream where you're like you're like well there's a better story out there well yeah so I agree with you so that's maybe also the point I eventually wanted to make is like yes that is true but as you said objectively Bitcoin has Superior characteristics and what once that exists and and it's your job for example to figure that out like what are assets that exist in the world how can we store value like you cannot ignore Bitcoin based on the characteristics and then if you keep using as Brian also reaffirmed like the story right then it's a weak argument that's more my point so yes yeah I love having braah on this is going to make our the show so much SP here because because uh and I'm not anti gold I just don't no no because well no I'm not I mean I'm I'm I'm pretty Pro I'm pretty Pro Bitcoin but but where I was going with it is actually Bitcoin does not have Superior properties to gold today and the reason why because it doesn't have the liquidity profile so no nation state can actually protect their wealth in that in the future that's the idea um but that's just that's just fundamentally true like no nation state is going to be able to go right now and protect their value I guess theoretically like they could um but that don't you agree don't you agree that the the line of that switching is very thin I mean what saor talks about like if if America adopts Bitcoin or if America sells gold not even all the gold maybe 5% of the gold or whatever lamus is proposing right I think it's around fiveish percent maybe Tim knows that better that's a signal that's a signal that hey there's this other asset that is at least equally as good or even better I I would argue because I'm selling the one thing and I'm buying other thing uh and so I'm diversifying in the most Bas layer important asset of of my country like that's a that's a huge signal and of course when you hear Sailor Talk he's like yeah sell all the gold and you buy Bitcoin because then you demonetize all the gold reserves of any other country I mean it's an evil plan but it it is true so in that sense I'd say that line is very very thin for people to realize hey if this other thing is on the same level I should I should pay attention I definitely agree there I think like the fact that um we're this far along in a monetization of new asset in only 15 years which you're describing that line is going to move fast um yeah so that's definitely true I think like we generally think it happens sooner I think the gold bugs and folks that are tied to Gold think it happens longer there's probably some Middle Ground where it doesn't happen as fast as we want but it doesn't take as long as you know Boomers would expect I agree yeah zooming back in I wanted to pull up a chart from that they published in their newsletter from last week I think it's worth discussing just in the context of strategic Bitcoin Reserve policy what's going on around the world but tying it back into the volatility I'll make this a little bit bigger just in case it's hard to see it's assets pull back from their post-election Peak and so bitcoin's Peak from where the price was prior to the election was a 54% return but it's still sitting at 20% higher than it was before Trump was elected in November and so when you compare this across the board because as we know this year has been volatile to the downside for traditional markets especially equities we've seen a lot in Tech uh tech stocks as well Bitcoin is still outperforming everything else so it's a good view and a lens to have I think n did get did a good job in putting this chart together because yes Bitcoin is $85,000 currently yes it was $109,000 at some point in the past couple of months but if you just take you know a six-month look at it it's still up 20% and so the fundamentals continue to improve we could talk about the supply and demand imbalances that will likely occur this year um but if you if you just take a look at this yes bitcoin's volatile but if you have a strategy to take advantage of the down swings and then also dollar cost average into the market as well it ends up benefiting you for the long term and it ends up growing your purch purchasing power faster than any other asset class yeah I love this chart because it really you know hones in on on this idea of like short short-termism is really the norm in Wall Street and traditional finance and like even a six-month period is long for for most folks in that world and so like even just zooming out to to 6 months you realize okay you know while the sort of narrative around bitcoin's vol recently has been like oh it's crashing right like it's crashing back down to the 80s it's like okay well it's actually the best performing asset since the election so like it it flies in the face of anyone's preconceived notions about the volatility or um that you know we somehow topped or like you know we're just have have crashed to this level it's it's just not the reality and and so even zooming out to this what I would consider still very shortterm six-month period um that that should be eye opening for folks but I don't know if if trapy folks are looking at that chart I think they're looking at week by week you know month-to-month uh charts and thinking that way yeah maybe one thing to add there I had I I remembered a tweet from last week um about South Korea Central Bank dismissing establishing a strategic Bitcoin reserve and one of the quotes was price volatility is very high and you know when you think about that okay Central Bank should have a long-term strategy right okay and then they say price volatility is very high but you know I I think we're kind of talking about how early are we and like how do people understand this how do they look at it right because if you if you look at the chart that you just showed like it's pretty clear it's a good asset you know even in in in pretty wild times I think where where we're in right like lots of stuff is is happening and then you have a central bank saying like Okay price volatility is very high but so they don't understand a central bank doesn't understand Market risk so the price volatility the difference between that and and the counterparty risk like if you studied Bitcoin you know that one Bitcoin is one Bitcoin in the future it's like the most extreme uh stable things in the entire world if you think about it in Bitcoin right and so what I find so fascinating again yeah I love the word fascinating that the Central Bank says that but they don't understand it right like and and that I think for me shows why we are so early but then when you show a chart like this um it actually should show people that no this is an established thing already like it's it's working you you can use it and and protect yourself even in these times right so I I like that that bouncing back and forth because it's it's just eventually I think about just how much time you you spend on it and try to kind of like challenge all the the preconceptions that that people have it's a great point it's an exercise we've done for years in the sense of like would you rather have 500k in BTC or a million dollars in a bank account and all the things associated and I think it came out this past week because of the counterparty risk issue and you know you can always be debanked wake up and have your just be completely offline not be able to access it but it came out this past week I feel like I don't remember the names but there were the some of the big four banks that were now um people that had been hacked they weren't like reimbursing them because historically you would reference you know why you know multi- institution and why insurance and all these things we do are important because you can't reverse the transaction I.E a bank when there's something nefarious or malicious that happens but now Banks aren't even doing that because I think my assumption I didn't go too far into it because uh but because social engineering and hacks are so prevalent it's just like uneconomical because you have these Boomers that are just clicking buttons and this is how coinbase assets are lost like their brains just aren't wired for the way that bad actors think online and so even with banks now even they don't have to do anything wrong even though they keep you know failing you just have to not click the right button or not have the right operational security with your Gmail account and you may lose a certain amount of assets that don't get you know yeah that's brought back I think the the intricacy there is that with social engineering why it's you know so prevalent as a as a form of of crime right now and accelerating is because basically you're you're tricking the the end client to do something basically willingly so it kind of like whether it's the bank or coinbase it kind of lets them off the hook because it wasn't like necessarily their systems that were hacked the the person themselves was socially engineered um so I think that's kind of what you're referring to and and why I I haven't looked at this story either but um I know that's what's happened on the coinbase side of things well but the point being is like on coinbase it's a bare asset you can never take it back so it would make sense but the uh it's just AER other datab so they should thetically be a to reverse that in the same way you have a fra fraudulent charge with your credit card they can but the fact that they're not doing that is already there's probably part of it is because it's so prevalent then it's it ends up costing money just to go back to have to reverse that through the the banking system yeah I I wrote something on LinkedIn earlier this week just about the perception that Bitcoin is uninvestable because of all these problems that we're discussing because what's worse is what what's worse just not buying Bitcoin not having any of it or buying it and then just not having it one day because your account you're social engineer to give up the credentials or you know send your Bitcoin somewhere or because you're on the next FTX and it blows up one day and you don't you didn't have anything in place to cover your ass so Bitcoin has really just been uninvestable for people who don't have the time time or resources or curiosity to figure this thing out and that is obviously not a problem if you have a Charles Schwab account you don't need to figure out well how do I manage my spy shares you just buy spy in your Schwab account and then it sits there and then if you want the dollars back at a later point you sell the shares and you have the dollars in your brokerage account but Bitcoin is just has not been that simple it's getting there uh like what we're doing is helping to make it more simple for people the ETFs make it more simple for people but there still not a lot of solutions that actually make Bitcoin investable for the masses or it's just a perception thing too right like the bybit hack a few weeks ago like I think it hasn't been talked about a ton but I would say that like that has contributed to some of the the current draw down and and correction that we've seen over the past month or so like I think it speaks to exactly what you're describing of the the confidence and conviction someone has in allocating when they see a a you know a massive back the largest heist in in you know Financial history um that gives people pause can we can we like pause on the bybit hack for a sec because I was thinking about um this isn't meant to scare us or anyone but I was just like thinking about I forget I was sending an email to a prospective client it was it was so the B hack we all know is like the largest hack or theft in financial services but when you look back from a physical theft um it was it's about 20x the largest so the the largest uh I believe was in Iraq it was 70 million from the gold that they had there and then before that I think there was like 50 to 60 million that was a painting the point being is this is 20x and this is digital online somebody can do from any place on the planet Earth we are just not really prepared for the F like having digital assets online that are be that you can never reverse in the asset price is only 85 90k like imagine 250,000 300,000 500,000 million dollar the level of sophistication like we are just not ready for it um and then the physical hacks come with it because right now people generally do them digitally we know so it's just a fascinating to think about all the world's wealth stored in Bitcoin comes with a lot of like responsibility and and infrastructure and processes that just aren't fully baked out early Paradox well yeah like in that same conversation with that gold guy we talked about this right like if so yes this is all true I think what Michael says but and and also again even if you understand Bitcoin it's hard to make decisions as to what you allocate how you store and all these things because every person has a different I'd say risk profile or preference or however you want you want to uh call that right because if you um yeah if you store Bitcoin with on ramp it's different than self- custody it's it's probably going to be way different than when you store it at a Charles swab or um you know so there's just different ways to do that just as now people have either real estate or art or stocks or or whatever and so even when you understand the properties of Bitcoin and what it gives you in in true self- custody that's also not for everyone right like uh I think it's just eventually very personal decision and so again why are we we are early but this adoption goes really fast because it's digital but again it's like a one by one conversion right because if once you do the work you still have to decide like how do I apply this new knowledge um that I have and how do I move well with this Bitcoin and and what do I do with it so I also think that's why it's slow and hard and again why it's an asymmetric uh opportunity because once you get it and you do the work to make these decisions for yourself that's when you can actually have an edge against all the other people that are still figuring it out at onramp we believe that Bitcoin is the most important asset of the 21st century the hard part is securing it right there are shortcomings with keeping your coins on an exchange but also with setting up your own self- custody Arrangement onramp solves for these concerns our multi-institution custody solution maximizes security and minimizes counterparty risk ensuring that your Bitcoin remains securely in your possession and provides buil-in inheritance planning to ensure your family is protected as well onramp provides peace of mind for your Bitcoin Journey whether for your whole stack or for part of it as a complement to your existing self- custody setup for more information check us out at onramp bitcoin.com what Tim on your side what's been like interesting in in the Bitcoin treasury world because I would imagine it's um the spectrum is just as wide as individuals when it comes to some get it and they're just now trying to figure out from a governance and consensus from an internal perspective all the way to others like what the hell is this and maybe I want some salana instead of Bitcoin like how are those conversations going well even leaving the other chains out of it I had a call yesterday with someone that um they've accepted Bitcoin on their Business website for several years but they're still considering whether they want to to even be public talking about the fact that they have Bitcoin on their private company balance sheet which is understandable um not everyone wants to be an internet celebrity or even visible um but yeah I mean I I think what you guys mentioned about the digital assets and the headlines of these hacks coupled with like there's going to be a point I think in this Administration where you see this overwhelming social proof whether it's the United States buying Bitcoin or or or something like that and the price is just ripping where people will get off zero they still may not even understand it but but it'll be this kind of call to research call to study right just like fomo right like I don't think we've really seen fomo this cycle thus far yeah yeah there's two directions we could take this uh I want to throw it to the group So based on what Tim just said I think there's an interesting anecdote there where a business is accepting Bitcoin for several years but they are not sure how much they want to share about that because it opens up sounds like potential security risk to them depending on how they're managing the asset and creates a higher profile than maybe they want so One Direction we could go in is talk about insurance uh as part of a treasury strategy and then another totally different direction we could go in perhaps later but Tim to your point is as things start to accelerate at the nation state level I want to talk budget neutral that's that's the big buzzword as of late so uh I want to toss it to the group are we talking insurance right now or are we talking budget neutral I like budget neutral let's do budget neutral and then we can go I think there's something to uh standardizing like in general what Braum said I think um makes sense right now but over time the only way we get ma Mass adoptions you have to standardized processes like a checking account works like a checking account the internet works how it does I think well we'll have preferential ideas on how we want to secure Bitcoin today in the future it'll have to be standardized from the individual to the corporate because that's how you able to ensure it and do other things so maybe we could do that one later budget neutral it is i' never it never occurred to me that this was a uh a term that would be thrown out but as of the past couple weeks it's it's really the term it's like what does it mean what are some ways that the US Government Can acquire Bitcoin in a budget budget neutral Manner and so it might have been yesterday or the day prior but there was uh Tom emmer who's in the House of Representatives in Minnesota had a I don't know where he said it but he he said that he was confident that by the end of this Congress term so in the next year or so that the Strategic Bitcoin Reserve bill so the acquiring 1 million Bitcoin would be enacted before that term ends and so then it ties into well how will they actually acquire the Bitcoin because they've made it clear in the executive order that it won't there will not be any use of taxpayer dollars to do so so budget neutral I I think there's a there was a good summary or some thoughts that were put out by Van E I could pull it up if it's helpful of some different budget neutral strategies that have been identified so I can just rattle them off real quick just for anyone who's listening and then we could talk about them so there's exchange stabilization fund I don't really know what that means to be honest uh so someone else smarter than me could tell me uh revalue gold reserves which I believe uh scent said they wouldn't do recently but I may have misunderstood that the third would be reduce the feds permissible Surplus four would be Lobby IMF to include BTC in sdrs five would be Bitcoin bonds Bitcoin bonds is something we spoke about last week we could talk more about that and then number five sell the 1.4 billion pounds of cheese stored in Missouri caves and then number six would be a percentage of Doge savings so thoughts from the group on on these six ideas sell the cheese market sell the cheese immediately like who's going to buy that that's fasinating I I have a lot of thoughts actually I I I love Gro so I asked what's the exchange stabilization fund it's a US Government emergency Reserve fund managed by the Department of Treasury established in 1934 under the gold Reserve Act it's Prim primary purpose is to stabilize the value of the US dollar and maintain orderly conditions in the Foreign Exchange Market the ESF can be used to buy or sell foreign currencies extend credit or engage in other Financial transactions to counteract fluctuations or disruptions in currency markets that might affect the US economy well you can read that in different ways but that pretty much aligns with what seems like a pretty vague vague slush fun of course but I think to to use it to stabilize the dollar I think that argument could be made but I want to go back to to just the term uh uh budget neutral right I think there's different ways why that's a good term I think one it buys time because it kind of implies like okay I'm going to do it but budget neutral means I'm going to take some time to figure out how so you give yourself some some time whether that's strategically smart I don't know because like on the other side we've heard I think it's also Michael sailor who says it a lot right like the first country that prints their own currency and buys Bitcoin wins but that would even be way more obvious than selling gold and buying Bitcoin I think like that that would be like the total uh I don't know that that would that that would call in crazy times I think if if America would do that so I think that's then you would basically also admit that the dollar is not a strong currency I'm just giving it up I'm inflating and like all all these things so I think that that would generally be a bad decision so they buy themselves sometimes sometime and not using any tax funded ways of course ties back to what we previously talked about just the whole view of Bitcoin half of the country didn't even vote for this stuff right like so that is just a that's a narrative you cannot really defend and then just the the budget neutral part I think the the options that that you show um and even selling gold I'd say is part of budget neutral um I think it's is a smart way to phrase we're still figuring it out but at the same time you see Scott bassent and Bo Bo Hines and all these guys they are affirming that their intent is to buy and buy a lot right so the the the um argumentation around why it's strategically important Etc um is actually Amplified now in in the interviews and uh that that you see it's interesting because it seems to your point Brom it's becoming more obvious to us what the intentions are but it's still very esoteric to most people it's almost like the Federal Reserve right where people generally know that the Federal Reserve exists but they don't actually know anything about what they do in terms of interest rate policy how do they make decisions and then there's this group of people that spend time on Twitter and on other platforms where they look at what comes from the Federal Reserve on a a monthly basis but most of the population pays absolutely no attention to that and and you're kind of better off paying paying no attention to what they have to say but the same thing is applied here where it's like yeah we're really drilling down now and we're paying attention to these Snippets of information that are being shared publicly but we're like in the0 1% of people in the world that are paying any attention to this and um I think that's where all the asymmetry is braam you said it great eloquently earlier about how I forget the exact term but we're just relying on publicly available information to have a symmetry as it relates to bitcoin so that is like that's where I think we are I'm curious to the group though any other thoughts on on budget neutral uh I could pull up the thing again if it's helpful yeah I think the with uh The Exchange stabilization fund I think that's a likely Target the other one that seems likely to me is um selling the stockpile of of altcoins and maybe you like you wait for a quote unquote alt season in the next 6 months and you you try to time the top of selling the altcoins to buy more Bitcoin um Bitcoin bonds is interesting I think that would be a probably less likely in the near term I could see that more medium term as a as a way um there's another suggestion I've I've read that you know partnering with mining companies to some extent so like you know uh US Government getting into into mining and just uh you know generating Bitcoin themselves instead of just outright buying it but you know buying infrastructure instead um there's also this uh the golden Visa idea that the dawn has put forth if that actually if we see that come to fruition that would be uh budget neutral um so there's there's a number of ways and frankly like I think there's probably a handful of ways that lutnick and bent are currently con coting that we're not even thinking about Yeah Tim Tim just added uh in the chat like that um that ESF is without any Congressional approval so I think it's uh bent with Trump that can actually determine if they can use any of the 39 billion that are in there and I think actually to add I saw lus tweet about um the audit that's going on right so they're auditing like how much coin do we have um which is also going to be a very interesting if they share that result right because uh in general people talk about like okay the US has 200,000 Bitcoin uh but I've talked to several people that actually say like no it's closer to 60 or 80 like that is an old old number and they've been selling you know the Biden admin has been selling uh along the way and so that's going to be interesting too because uh referring back to the to the buy bit hack uh I don't know how many Bitcoin that is in uh North Korean hands right now like what they laundered but uh that might be more than the US um pile after we've had um uh the the the research so uh I think that's also an interesting Dynamic uh there I have like zero take on this or care because uh I've just watched the government blow money in every which way and never had to explain how they did it and so like it all just comes back to if they're going to want to do it and have enough of the consensus with whoever's making the decisions they're just going to figure it out independent of it's on the five things on that chart or something else um it's an interesting they'll figure out it's just them selling it like selling it to the American public that it's not costing them anything like that that and they'll figure out how to do that you have to really really feel like what take like I know sometimes we feel like we're in a bubble but this conversation makes me truly feel like we're in a bubble cuz think about all the different ways they're going to spend their money and we're like talking about this one portion it and going super deep um and then yeah it's just a funny it's funny Mich it's okay if you don't care we don't have to talk aboutmore no I'm just referring to it's just something I truly like haven't thought deeply about because I just always assume like it's with everything else if they're going to spend the money they're going to spend the money they find a way to do it just like they were spending in you know trans kind of learnings in North Africa or whatever else that they found USA was working on yeah I uh maybe maybe Nice Bridge to add to one thing and this is not verified I just saw a tweet that says the IMF board has warned Trump not to add any Bitcoin to America's strategic Reserve citing volatility and stability risk to the US economy again it's unverified but it wouldn't surprise me if they actually said that um but why do countries leaders IMF ECB why do they pay attention to bitcoin if it's nothing you know I I find that so inter always yeah that's always been the thing is like they just have all these words to dismiss it but then there's just so much action and uh intent on trying to discredit yeah but when you talk about it you validate it also Absolut I agree with you that's what I'm saying and this is actually a great anecdote tying back to why and also it's utility and ultimately you can't stop something that provides value um and this was I think something I got like under reported it came out Friday but it was Russia using uh crypto and oil trade with China and India I would imagine crypto they're referring to bitcoin I don't know if you're trading salana for large barrels of oil via shipping tankers um to skirt Western sanctions but I think there's just this reality that Bitcoin provides the ultimate amount of utility and value whether it's from moving large scales of Commodities because your country needs them all the way to your strategic reserves and how do you get offset this T the debt situation we're in and um everybody finds a way well Michael what do you want to talk about no it wasn't that I didn't want to talk about it just like I I think it's like a it's a good thought experiment and I guess we that's what this pot is it's just thinking through things it's just the fact that like whether it's the thing on that list or something else I think we all believe they want to get it done they're incentivized to get it done I think of Bitcoin in their Arsenal as uh putty like putty it's just the thing that they're going to use as the asset appreciates to get us out of this debt situation so they naturally need it to go up in value and because of that they're going to figure it out independent of if they do something on that list or some other you know crazy scheme that's never been seen before it's just going to like get swept under the the the rug in the same way they sweep everything else under the rug when they allocate to things we don't appreciate because there's going to be a whole slew of citizens in the US that are going to think this is insane and they're just not going to care in the same way that they do a bunch of things that they fund that we think is insane and it just doesn't matter like it's it's there's a guise of that it matters and there's democracy and all that but it really doesn't they're going to figure it out and just get it through how do you think about you know let let's say the the Strategic Bitcoin Reserve actually gets um actually starts right and they're selling gold or they you know any budget neutral way they're just adding to it right what I saw this take I don't know by who it was but they said like what if the rest of the world just thinks America has gone berserk and crazy and they just think like oh Trump is an idiot Etc and uh you know they're they're crazy to do so do you think that's actually a legitimate option or maybe if yes maybe that's actually a even bigger because I think it would most mostly be like countries in Europe right or England that say that like we're not going to do it uh or like South Korea but I think that would actually be an opportunity for smaller countries to adopt adopt a strategy so so geopolitically I think it's a very interesting thing but I wanted to to to get your take on that it's a great point because it would actually track like it would probably should be from the past 15 years be less surprising than it than it would be simply because it's less of the the powers like Bitcoin being emergent has come from the bottoms up it's a people that need it naturally and have the the least amount to lose already don't have the the asset so uh UK European powerhouses would would theoretically that would make sense I think the thing that's interesting that came up um it's in safe's book I believe but cam from our team was bringing it up about like this notion that everybody's going to get Bitcoin ASAP uh is the idea behind India and China how they picked the wrong currency because they had adopted uh silver for 50 to 100 years while everyone else went on the gold standard and they literally like have suffered for that uh for for 50 to 100 years and so I think that ties into Braum what you're saying is everyone gets Bitcoin at the price they deserve including countries uh and maybe the the smaller countries deserve it sooner because they're going to be more Nimble they're the Estonia the uaes of the world yeah but then if you think about like the gunpowder analogy that that could also play out right it's just like okay damn I need to adopt this even though I don't understand it or don't like it or you know whatever any objection is but then you have just like a like a like a global frenzy in that sense right that that's what safety uh uh also says about the the gunpowder analogy yeah it's an interesting thought I think that there's there's a non-zero possibility that that's that's sort of how this plays out Braum like because I think it goes back to the the idea around rationalization and almost like a sunk cost fallacy of like you know if you're a western democracy in Europe and like you're still clinging to the idea that you have a sovereign currency that has some value um and then you look at what the United States is doing and you think okay well you know most of the Bitcoin sits in America anyway this seems very self-serving to them to adopt it that could be a line of thinking and then it could also just be like they don't like Trump and they think that he's the one driving this when in reality like that's pretty misguided because like you know Trump at the the crypto Summit the other the other uh week was like really signaling like this is not him driving this like he's like sounds good like you guys are telling me to do this like let's do it um so it's like it's misguided if if other countries around the world are saying like oh this is just a crazy Trump thing because it's not like it's that's not who's driving it it's people he's surrounded himself with um that are going to be you know implementing this and executing on it yeah but we started this talk with the market is wrong and we see like uh the South Korea Central Bank talk like like how they talk right so it it it also looks like the people that should think rational are not always thinking in a rational and long long-term way so I mean anything goes right like that that is why this is so entertaining to to just watch and and see what happens yeah maybe it's worth talking about insurance now um but before doing so Tim are you able to do a quick tie reveal the tie is um it's pretty long today I'd say average to above average so it's a light it's light orange almost almost salmon I I I think we'll have to let it up to the fans to uh really orange enough yeah let us know is that actually an orange tie or not if you like the tie if you respect that Tim wears a suit to every the last trade episode you could rate the show five stars uh but yeah let's talk about insurance subscribe comment and share yeah if you don't like his tie you can comment too he'll take the feedback and and figure it out for next week let's shed Insurance because I think this one will be a spicy one and I think it's a good one to have because Braum comes from a a great side of you know that everyone's going to make a their own decision I think today but in the future it'll be a little different um so we announced before the Pod and so this will come out recording Thursday it'll come out Friday that we um partner with Lloyds of London and their Syndicate Partners to offer $100 million policy uh across our our platform to ensure clients's assets but why that's important or why it matters and ultimately this ties actually into this whole conversation of why businesses institutions individuals haven't adopted at least in my opinion and I think Brian and Jackson share some of it is ultimately people a need to be educated on just like why you know there's only 21 million most people don't even know that but once you get there it gets to be more of Common Sense than like uh an IQ test because theoretically if there's only 21 million there should be some value and then it's like well what is it but the problem is when we talk with individuals or anybody that makes up an institution which is of individuals that Ponzi that it's a you know uh snake oil it's used by Bad actors it can always you know whatever their like objection is generally in sales you know the first objection is not the real one and the way I perceive the objections is less about the asset it's more that it'll always disappear the next day so historically for 15 years there hasn't been an actual credible way to make Bitcoin custody bulletproof you ultimately have to rely on yourself which can be a potential single point of failure or you rely on a single third party custodian so that's why we exist to offer peace of mind to make that bulletproof now where insurance comes into play is because at the end of the day full stop the best form of Bitcoin insurance is the way the private keys are secured so you want best-in-class Services that's what multi- institution multiple qualified custodians involved but for financial services for Market structure for larger institutions to come in and individuals you still have to have um to back stop that because there are tail risks and so that's where this insurance policy comes in but the beauty of insurance is it sometimes gets conflated because the reality is you can ensure anything like Braum that beautiful green shirt that uh you brought you know with the on-ramp colors you can go and ensure that in the same way you can ensure your private key Bitcoin setup the question is is it economically feasible because that ends up being effectively what I would think of as a snowflake you have to go to Underwriters you have they have to understand the risk where you're segregating how the keys are stored what kind of proprietary un proprietary technology what are all that and you end up in this setup where you have to pay 1 to 2% of your assets annually and then you still have to pay a premium anywhere between 10 to 50% if something bad happens so that's kind of like out the door unless somebody probably has billions of dollars but then they're just going to be leaking Bitcoin every year the other side of that which most people know is effectively going to the large custodians and they all know that's generally marketing or window dressing because the insurance policies are generally anywhere between 100 to 300 million for these uh large firms but the amount of assets they secure is anywhere between 10 billion to all the way to coinbase 700 billion so there's no credible insurance policy there because they sit in an Omnibus which is just fancy word for in a pulled vehicle all there and if there's ever a a tail risk like a buyit never going to be made whole so there's a natural Gap and that's ultimately what we're doing with onramp and multi- institution custody will be there'll be a lot more about this but where this ties into what we do is effectively trying to democratize access for individuals that are coming into the space by making it bulletproof not having to go through all of the learnings we've all had to over the past five to 10 years of seed phrases multi- collaborative custody like all these things versus just being able to just the similar uh like the Mosaic or the uh net Netscape browser where you can just tell friends family yourself go through an onboarding have a multi- institution wallet secure large amounts of Bitcoin and never have to deal with any of the complexity and it mirrors Bank vaults in the insurance world so uh Bank vaults the if you look back into Financial Services the way that that really grew was the uniform standards that Banks had to adhere to by the dimensions of a bank vault you can now start to credibly U ensure Banks you can start to ensure the financial products that they deliver there hasn't been that uniform standard in the industry and that's why we're excited about this and what multi-institution really is just scratching the surfaces on how much it's going to really change um the market structure around Bitcoin the amount of allocations that can come in and ultimately at the end of the day how people can get off the rat race of being debase and then have a better form of custody yeah it's really well said I think one one element uh to highlight is that you know this coverage is coming at no additional cost to to onramp clients and it's it's baked into the custody fees um and you know the reason for that the reason we're able to do that is because multi-institution custody by itself is extremely robust and secure and so the underwriters were able to get very comfortable with providing coverage on our specific custody model because risk is distributed inherently as the keys are distributed across distinct entities um and also clients aren't holding keys so you're already eliminating a whole slew of risks that you would potentially being insur you know insuring against everything from the the wrench attack to social engineering um those are already mitigated via the custody model itself so you know the underwriters at Lloyds were able to get comfortable with it pretty quickly um um and also do it at you know a basically a price point where we could bake it into our custody fees so I think that's that's just worth highlighting yeah I think it always comes back to peace of mind I think Michael and Brian you both did an excellent job highlighting the value proposition the most simple way I would put it for myself is you don't have peace of mind if you don't own Bitcoin because life gets more expensive over time because of the basement then you gravitate toward bit coin as a way to protect yourself from that but then as Bitcoin grows as a percentage of your net worth you have less piece of mind because you know that there's some sort of tail risks that exist out there that could result in a permanent loss of capital so you could mismanage the keys yourself and lose the Bitcoin you're you could pass away and your family wouldn't be able to access the Bitcoin you could leave your Bitcoin on an exchange and the exchange could go under or your account could be compromised and hacked and you could l the Bitcoin so there's always like this lacking of peace of mind all the way through this Bitcoin journey and so I I love to sleep as you guys know I I go to bed pretty early uh 10 p.m. I like to be in bed and I sleep well and and I sleep well because I have peace of mind about my assets and my Bitcoin and it's because of multi- institution and now what we're offering to our clients as you both mentioned is the insurance is just kind of the cherry on top the the end of the day it's all about the custody of the asset the security of how the keys are managed but now these like really outlier tail risks are mitigated through an insurance policy as well and ultimately that gives me the peace of mind to know that my Bitcoin is protected for the long term and I can actually rely on this savings technology to preserve and grow my wealth for my family for a while yeah and one thing just to add like it sounds like you know we're talking our book we f focus on custody but there's an actual reason why we focus on custody it just comes from we've been building infrastructure personally in the space for half a decade we've had thousands of conversations onboarded large amounts of capital and the Common Thread throughout everything is all of these conversations at education are feudal if you do not if you canot credibly offer the the the person you're trying to orange pill or help a way that they're not going to lose all their assets Jackson brought it up earlier and it's kind of a joke but it's so true everyone will say that it's easy to put 12 words on a seed phrase yes for $10 but not for Meaningful amounts of wealth and that person would rather have the next 20 years of negative yielding bonds versus put it and lose it the next day everyone would including ourselves if we just did not feel comfortable with all putting 90% of our wealth because tomorrow we lose it we would just take the slow bleed our lives would get harder but at least we wouldn't lose all of our money and so unless cus city is fully baked out and bulletproof you're always going to be hindering adoption and that's ultimately where you have to have a nice balance between again protocol being native onchain the assurances of multiple institutions we still live in a world where we trust folks but at the same point making it simple and easy without the friction of three plus years of having to listen to pods go down because people are on the rat race like that was U this is actually ties in really well Jackson to the podcast we recorded with um uh Bob Griffin it's a fantastic pod one of the best we've done on the institutional side he ran pensions institutional capital and he was just referring to you know he didn't really get Bitcoin until he kind of took a a leave this is a very wealthy you know made his money very uh sophisticated investor he couldn't look at Bitcoin earnestly because he was just stuck working when everyone's working and have their own busy lives they can't just sit back for a few months and he was sitting at a coffee shop and he heard folks like braah and Tim sitting behind him talking about Bitcoin and he was just like oh what's that and then he went and did the research but imagine working your full-time job trying to make ends meet or just trying to work at your hedge fund trying to make that next you know million dollars you can't actually just sit around and think about this stuff and then if you do you're still like eh it's just a Ponzi because I don't even know I'm going to secure it and not end up you know in the metaphorical landfill or North Korean so it just naturally needs to be ubiquitous that somebody can get exposure to the space and not lose their assets and that's when we're really going to see the fly like the fly whe take off yeah well I think we can wrap it in just a second here I want to hear if anyone in the group has thoughts what we discussed today or maybe something we didn't discuss what do you think the next thing will be that will move the markets higher do you have any guesses like what comes next what gets us out of 85k I don't want to I don't want to be here next week looking at 85k on the terminal I think I I'll have something to say that will draw cardsman out um uh I don't know if it was my own tweet or someone else's tweet but the idea of like a huge serious company adding Bitcoin to their treasury so either Zuckerberg who has majority voting rights Amazon Dell I'm thinking something along those those lines so not not not a country or anything but uh like a serious American entrepreneur adding Bitcoin to their treasury um in a in a in a big enough way let's say big enough way like just in a serious enough way bra what about GameStop oh yes oh yeah that's that's where the Tweet came from well actually I talked well you also talked to uh Matt Cole from strive and he uh he sent a letter to um uh what's his name again Cohen the Brian Cohen CEO of GameStop yeah so or or GameStop yeah that's that's where that tweet came from because people were talking about GameStop so it's either yeah so GameStop zck Dell Amazon but I think GameStop is uh I I think that's happening you know if if you think about what what I love about Bitcoin that it's like is this true native internet concept and idea right like it it originated there and that's how how it's manifest through not only the digital world but the real world and I think one of the memes that I love on the Internet is like the most entertaining outcome is the most likely right and the whole journey of GameStop is already that you know the whole the whole fight of of like an online decentralized online community right just people that don't really know each other fighting against like the Wall Street shorters and like that just that entire story is fascinating but like the cherry on top would be you using that leverage that they created not only in terms of the money they have but also the the the the um mtic like yeah like the whole image like how people view it like okay so I'm gonna take this five billion and I'm just GNA plow it into Bitcoin and then I'm going to like better perform than any other company uh you know listed listed company maybe maybe maybe even more than micro strategy I don't know but like that f is so it's not only entertaining but it's also very logical like the the the the financial opportunity for GameStop to just catapult into the stratosphere along with Bitcoin it it is so clear it's so clear and uh yeah that would be truly entertaining to watch and uh uh that might blow up the internet I always thought like 100k Bitcoin would blow up the internet that didn't happen uh but this is uh this is going to melt the brains on on MSNBC like what are they do what they did what you know so I um I think I think that is probably the best suggestion I I think that that would help it yeah so like a company buying Bitcoin in a meaningful way yeah I could see Bas Zuck giving Bitcoin the Zuck down he has Bitcoin goats you know that right his goat or something yeah yeah his goat is called Satoshi or something or I don't know right or like I forget the names it was like maybe one of them was like Max or Maxi something like something like that yeah kaai and film an iners interview with Zuck once he does that I think it's Global liquidity keep an eye on global liquidity it's it's pivoting back upwards there's typically a lag um in terms of of global liquidity moves and Bitcoin and other uh scarce assets response um so I would just keep an eye there yeah I think that's a great call we didn't talk I mean we talked about gold but we didn't talk about it tapping like 3,50 or whatever uh I think there's a lot i' have solace in knowing that Gold's just ripping right now because it's just a matter of time before Bitcoin follows and then rips much harder so that's fun you love that yellow rock man I love the rock you know maybe that's uh that's behind the the color scheme you got a little little gold in the the the tree can't forget you can't forget at the roots um Brum what what would you like you know you're you're part of the family now you're going to be joining every couple weeks what's a good segment we don't have that you think would be uh valuable and interesting to talk about that we can think Riff on the next couple weeks before you come back oh I like that that's a fun idea um I I think there's there's two things kind of what what what pasted here maybe like the most bullish take that we've seen and the most bearish thing that we've seen and I think the most bearish thing I've seen was the Central Bank of South Korea just you know talking nonsense um but like a bearish thing that maybe gives us hope or something like that something something fun like just um yeah that's the first thing I'm think about we could definitely do that we we were uh we're going to try to do signal and noise we could maybe do both I did have a noise for the week before we wrap up here actually I saw the Vanek filed for an avalanche ETF I don't even know what Avalanche is to be honest such a such a distract oh my God yeah that's noisy fan if you're listening I mean if you're going to go noise I'll go signal that that uh that the length of cosman's tie is just I can't get you can't get more bowled up we talked about it at the conference I think Braum's going to be there you're going to see that thing draping on the ground just like just the longer the tie the more bullish Tim is the bear the bearish thing that gives you hope is the price right back to the terminal with jaon the lower it dips the higher it rips I love it talking that's the ending that's the ending Jackson are you coming are you coming back next week what do you what do we need to get Jackson to come back next week we need uh Tim we need Tim's tie to be longer so the price can go higher I think because I'm I don't know if I want to do it next week if we're in the 80s still I'm very appreciative of uh the the the listeners going in the comments and explaining how Jackson provides Alpha every week so that was um that was nice to see like And subscribe like And subscribe all right it was fun cheers thanks boys cheers thanks for listening to this week's episode of the show if you found the information valuable please share the episode with a friend or leave a rating on your favorite podcast app all the links we discussed in today's show will be in the show notes inside your podcast app before we finish a quick reminder that onr media is for informational and entertainment purposes only and nothing should be construed as investment or legal advice regardless of where you are on your Bitcoin Journey we'd love to hear from you visit onramp bitcoin.com cont to schedule a consultation with one of our Private Client advisers