Pristine Collateral: Arch & Onramp's Vision for the Next Era of BTC Lending

[Music] it all comes down to computers communicating the information Super Highway can be a confusing mix of on-ramps and off-ramps Bitcoin is worthless artificial gold is it still rat poison probably rat poison squared we need to get into the world of okay this is actually foundational technology what the internet of money does is it creates a single Network which can do a microtransaction to a giga [Music] transaction the internet is going to be one of the major forces for reducing the role of government the one thing that's missing but that will soon be developed is a reliable eash hello we are back for another episode of final settlement I am here joined by Mitch as well as Duru and hansu um fellas do you want to introduce yourself absolutely so hey guys I'm hu the co-founder uh and CTO of arch and I'm joined here with du my co-founder yeah hey guys uh D here co-founder CEO of arch um and the focus of arch is really on providing a high Lev financial services for people with Bitcoin um and crypto broadly the main product we have is over cloudz loans against crypto assets where we don't reh hypothecate collateral um and allows both individuals and institutions to access liquidity without needing to sell and all the you know tax and other implications that come from that and so we're happy to to chat further about some announcements that that we've had together wonderful yeah and Mitch I think there was something you wanted to speak about with the re recent partnership for sure um we announced last week partnership with with uh with Arch to provide Bitcoin back loans to our clients um we've we've heard for months the the need um and constant request for um for our clients to to access that liquidity whether I'd say primarily because they didn't want to sell their Bitcoin and you know wanted to wanted to purchase something didn't want to uh take the capital gains hit um and the response to to the partnership has been been I'd say overwhelmingly positive um you know both you know the support they're getting from the the arch team you know the white glove Service as well as you know easy to use product uh it's uh it's been great thus far and couldn't be happier with with the relationship so why is there so much demand for Bitcoin backed loans so if you look at Bitcoin over the past few years it's been a very well appreciating asset it's one that people have considered now for a lot of use cases a store of value right so when you have something like a store of value in the traditional you have stocks you have bonds you have houses or other forms of real estate you go leverage that to fund other needs that you may have whether that's investment whether that's cash flow whether that's any big purchase that you have uh you need to borrow against the assets that you want because that makes you more credit worthy in the same way uh with Bitcoin you come borrow against Bitcoin Bitcoin in our opinion especially as lenders is pristine caal it is you never have to mark to Market it's priced 247 365 the market never stops and uh you can always know exactly where you are uh as a borrower and as a lender in a Bitcoin back loan um we've been fortunate enough to be doing this for a few years and have learned a lot about the business even more than we came in with and have learned about the wide variety of needs for borrowers um and you know we've actually seen a number of interesting borrowers already with the onr partnership whove been able to benefit from this and go make other investment or use it for the purposes so how does it work yeah so essentially um the way it works from start to finish is you go through and maybe I'll speak about it um as Arch specifically and then we can talk through like how the part ship looks like um but folks would come to our website create an account um and from there you configure your loan where you tell us how much Bitcoin you have or what loan amount you're looking for and it'll tell you the amount of collateral that you need to deposit um as you go through you electronically sign the loan documents we spell out um your interest payments and everything else associated with that loan you also pick your duration and one of the unique things about arches we go up to two years fixed term um which no one else in the market does um and so once you once you've finalized all of that you send your Bitcoin collateral over to our custodian partner we work with Anchorage digital who's a federally Chartered Bank and a US qualified custodian and once those uh that collateral is received we disperse you the loan you can get the loan in Dollars into your bank account or in stable coins into a crypto wallet of you're choosing and from there on you're free to do what you want with your funds um and then once you pay off your loan your collateral is sent back to you I think uh Liam one of the key considerations why we did this partnership and why customers um feel comfortable with using arch for Bitcoin back loans is we don't re hypothecate assets at all so we don't touch your assets your Bitcoin is yours it's sitting segregated in custody and we can talk more about what we plan to do there in the future later as well um we are us regulated in all the states that we operate in so you have the comfort of the regulation you have the comfort of uh us not reaping assets and keeping your assets completely segregated so it's it's a very safe traditional way of doing things uh which combined with the high level of customer service in this case both from the onr team and the arch team people feel very comfortable using this for a lot of their needs yeah I'd say like while you know as far as easy to use you know the comfort is is certainly there it's a delightful experience and why we chose you guys as you know a partner to to launch here number one it was the know rehypothecation and you know firmly stating you know keeping keeping that stance I think is important you know the seg segregated onchain addresses is is a delight for our clients but the the important thing that you know I say particularly looking at the lending Market the last couple years and you know the failures with you know your block F and Celsius is was you know really the bankruptcy remoteness and ensuring our clients Bitcoin remains theirs uh you know regardless of you know what anything that happened to Anchorage you know you've got the insurance policy you've got Bank um bankruptcy Protections in the trust anything happens to Arch you you've got a backup blown facilitator that that would you take upon the loans it is fairly bulletproof uh and which was important to you know our product is a deep Cold Storage product it's you know it's in place to to ensure that you pass down your Bitcoin to you know to your family your loved ones you know we've got inheritance built to the app that story needed to mesh well with the partner that we ended up launching with so you know and was the primary reason we we chose you guys was because we believe that Bitcoin you know first and foremost that Bitcoin needs to remain theirs yeah that's actually a great point cuz our our version always has been to be there for the long run you want to be your Banker till the end of times and you guys have the same version so I think it it it gels very well with how one how we approach our clients how we take care of them and also how we structure our products to make sure their assets remain with them for a long time and and Beyond and we we've certainly seen the car I think one of the the important things we do as a firm is you know so many of these companies in the Bitcoin space there's there's no one to call they you know in at onramp you always get a face you always get you know a human to go talk to um you know helping with onboarding helping with transfers helping you know any questions they might have and for you guys it was it's it's exactly the same you know the support is there you know very much you know 247 um for you know anything from test transactions into into wallets test transactions to receive you know collateral if it's usdc you we've seen you know weekend night support it's it's you know it's been a delight for our clients yeah and that's uh I think that's been a key Focus area for us is that client service where um even if you're not an existing client you can book a video call and someone from the team or a us-based team will get on the call to walk you through how everything works um and from there our product is quite intuitive and so most customers are able to do everything without talking to us but should they need they can find it in various points throughout the whole experience yeah that's a great solution I mean trust is Paramount in this and it seems like you guys have built a fair Fairly resilient product with it um so wonderful I guess just tell us a little bit about your existing customer demographic who finds value from this does this make up the entire Bitcoin backed loans do you think you're similar to the rest of the ecosystem your uh specific demographic and who do you see benefiting from this in the long term as well that isn't an existing client yeah I think it's uh our customer demographic is fairly unique I think compared to other lenders we're slightly more up Market than the base level of retail although we do allow people taking loans anywhere from $1,000 and up um our average loan size is well into the six figures um and we serve everything from um individuals all across the country to someone higher net forth as well um to all the way to a lot of Bitcoin miners hedge funds um we have public companies that borrow from us uh so it's it's really a wide variety and I think that's enabled by our software and by the customer service where the software makes sure that if if you want to take a loan you can have the loan fully uh configured collateral received funds disports while we're having this conversation here without us being in the loop at all so you have that speed and then you also combine that with the white glove customer service where like you can have a conversation with someone on our team instantly via chat and within if not a couple hours uh same day uh on video or on the phone interesting and um who else do you see that doesn't currently benefit from this uh picking this up in the future that doesn't currently that thinks it's a little too risky or uh you know isn't quite there yet yeah I I think it's probably not like who else just given the the segment hu described is so broad you know from individuals to uh companies whether you're a small public company or even private uh sorry a small private company or even publicly listed I think the bigger thing is more on education and just making people aware that this is an option um people are are comfortable boring against their assets broadly you look at uh mortgages helocs borrowing against stocks and all of those options that are available um but this is really just more about making people aware about hey you can do this with your Bitcoin um hammering home the non-re hypothecation because I think people are sort of concerned over the failures that happened years ago um but these are more of the points that we emphasize as opposed to being able to go to a net new audience because I think it's applicable to everyone we see it in our current demographic and it's more so just hammering home why we're sort of a safe transparent option here and like as far as you know new clients you know we I spoke to two clients today that were both buying homes and they were you know they didn't want to sell their Bitcoin they didn't want to take the gains and you know one you know was ready to go do it day one the other one wanted to create the rails and get it in place for when when they closed on the house I these are very real needs that you know if someone may not want may may not have any any history taking out these loans um you know but needs needs it in place because you know they're going to have that Financial you know event that that comes to them and you know I say having something in place there is is important as they're making that decision going through the process I think uh home bank's actually a great example for um why this partnership also makes sense for lot your customers and a lot of people who are buying homes in general because um most lenders will go maximum up to one year a lot of the bigger lenders go few months only we go up to two years in a fixed term and you can keep rolling over into a new loan at the end of this two years so you can in theory uh so there's a a very popular thing in the private banking World which is buy borrow die you never sell your assets you just keep borrowing against it and you can do that here you have a line of credit with us where as the collateral appreciates you can just borrow more against the same funds you can always add collateral and borrow more anyway um and then you can keep rolling it over so you don't have to pay the principal back you can keep rolling over your loan so for a home buying use case where you want to actually pay out over a number of years not just in the first year there's a lot of benefit to a structure like this which lets you borrow in the long run also if if you don't mind getting into you know I think most lenders in the space are more open term um and can call back you know those loans at you know any given time of you know Market fluctuations or that usds call back getting a little bit about like the the credit facility that you guys have and how those loans are sourced yeah yeah I I so I think like there's a few things that are important to to call out here one is where the capital comes from right and so if you look across the industry some people are taking in capital from more retail and then lending that out some people reh hypothecate your Bitcoin and that's where like Capital comes from and so for us because we don't ever touch client collateral um we've raised a clo facility um which stands for collateralized loan obligation and this was led by Galaxy digital but we'll very soon be announcing other well-known institutions that have participated in the mix and so our Capital comes from that financing source which is very common in the traditional Financial world where you have like personal loans and all sorts of other uh types of products here that allows us to then give out loans at fixed rate and fixed duration without needing to worry about oh I need to call the capital back from a given borrower just because we have this separate structure that's fully for loans Yeah we actually don't have the ability to call back loans uh which is great so like we're not even allowed to do that and our uh capital is a much longer duration than the loans that we give out so we're always going to guarantee that we're not going to have a duration mismatch which would necessite a capital call and like those terms that's that structure you need to go make financial decisions that you know like buying a house or making you know another investment like to have the the assurance that that duration is not going to be there and that that capital is going to be called back when you know FTX happens and you know Market's crashing when like you know it might be hard to actually pull that you know get that liquidity somewhere it's it makes a dramatic difference you know to our clients and like truly you know a partner that we wanted to go it's a completely different Paradigm like you mentioned open term loans right the max call back periods we've seen on open term loans from other lenders are like three months that isn't that you plan for real Financial decisiones yeah wonderful I guess you touched on it briefly but can you talk a little bit more about how Bitcoin is pristine collateral uh both the liquidity the custodial nature of it uh and your view on this relative to other asset based lending uh options that there are for sure yeah in fact now there's been a lot of focus on Bitcoin in the US as you know with the new Administration Bitcoin is very clearly a commodity um it is the most pren collateral for lender for a number of reasons we don't have to as I mentioned Mark to Market a house which you would have to price every few months or every time you refinance uh we don't have to worry about what the price is going to be because Bitcoin trades 24/7 in a stock based margin loan which you get at shab or somewhere else uh you could actually be underwater uh as a lender if the Market opens super low the next day right that doesn't happen here we always know that it's trading at a certain point if in a very bad situation you do have liquidated portion of collateral you can do that while that's happening because the systems are fully automated a lot of other lenders don't have automated systems but ours are um so as a lender there's no way for us to have a loss but as a b you also know that things are very transparent everything that you see is the same thing that we see we don't have any extra information or anything else on you uh beyond what the price of the collateral is and that's what defines the loan and all the terms are stated out at the start so Bitcoin as you know trades very significantly every day um it's a very high market cap uh asset and we only see that going higher as nation states other institutions come in um so I would say we're still in the very early Innings of credit against Bitcoin and this is just going to be a much much bigger industry as the US go by and the reason for that is that Bitcoin is going to continue to be perceived as pristine collateral by everyone who wants to collateralize it or lend against it yeah agreed I think we've definitely seen more demand from potential borrowers uh for Bitcoin loans rather than lenders at this moment um obviously the lenders are moving a little bit slower as well and so um you know at this point there are still some people that think that the interest rates are a little bit too high just given where they've seen loans for a bunch of different other asset classes um I guess could you speak a little bit to that and where you see the market going moving forward yeah I think one is also important to step back from the past few years where we were in a more of a zero interest rate world and so even right now when you have mortgages sitting at 7% we lend out anywhere starting at like an Allin 14% up to like 16 and a variety of it depends on the duration you're choosing the loan size as well um and so there's not that big of a a difference there uh when you look at personal loans even if you're a prime individual can be in that ballpark borrowing against your stocks at some brokerages is also close to the Double Digit Mark um and as hu pointed out it's important to also note this is still early as an industry and so as we continue um and we've been having conversations with banks uh to partner as well you'll see the cost come down and sort of the rates that are passed on to borrowers come down as well and so um you could expect to see that from us as well uh going forward is we're always working on how do we lower the cost of borrowing to our end customers it's actually very simple match right we have a facility with a certain amount of dollars in it we'll soon like we'll soon be announcing uh an upsize to it as that value grows the cost comes down um that combined with rate cuts from the government um and people's comfort with this as a lendable asset class in our opinion uh this is a very great uh opportunity for uh people institutional um lenders that want to earn yield because this is structurally a zero loss loan product so it's not like other loan products where you have to go CLA back uh or go get your funds back when you're under water from a borrower in this there is no way for the lender to be underwater so that risk premium is uh it has not quite been priced in yet and over the years as this becomes more mainstream I think it will get priced in and and the rates will come down significantly so you glossed over the zero loss loan product can you explain that a little bit more to those folks who may not be quite as familiar with that um yes uh so our so I'll use the numbers we have here right so in our partnership borrowers can borrow at 50% Lo value or anything below that if they want to be even more conservative uh there's the margin call at at 70% as the price of Bitcoin drops um there is a period of 24 hours for uh borrowers to then add some more collateral or pay back some more principle to bring it back down to healthy LTV um we do work with borrowers who are traveling Etc and need some more time uh at 80% there's a partial liquidation again just to bring it back to healthy LTV um so in all these scenarios the LTV is never going to touch 100% which is when you break even and then above 100% obviously as the lender were underwater uh so that doesn't happen and uh it just keeps the loan book healthy keep it keeps the borrowers never delinquent and uh it helps us obviously as a lender manage a healthy loan book yeah and and maybe the one thing I'll also add um going back to the the rate is you're also um part of the rate is for non- rehy modication right um and so there are costs to just storing Bitcoin securely at Anchorage um and for a lender like us that never touches client collateral um there is just a premium associated with that like there are probably options where there're maybe a percentage point or two lower than us but read the fine print they reate and your assets are not uh in custody um they're getting put to work to get yield which is why they can offer you a lower rate uh we don't do that and we've learned from the from the failures of 2022 and don't plan on doing that your Bitcoin becomes the liquidity to go issue other loans which you know time and time again we learn that doesn't work so you know that's one of the very important reasons why why we went with you guys um and one thing I wanted to harp on which you know a reason why the partnership works works so well and you know why why we wanted to add lending uh to our offerings as well is you know the ability to work hand inand with you guys in a margin call scenario a you know potential liquidation scenario where you know if we have a client that uses for deep Cold Storage you know and we've gone through that process you know over you know the last week too of you know if a withdrawal needs to be made um you working hand in hand with you guys keeping you posted the whole way um you know we need two verifications both you know with onramp with bito is you know our typical process to to go move funds take some time you know for our clients you know we're talking with you guys keeping you close to the whole way so that you know that that withdraw client doesn't get liquidated that that withdraw get processed we also you know we' got all the the Margin Call levels for for our clients and their loans we contact them before um you know even those levels are breached before you know your emails go out so we can signal to them to get ready and U just be aware that that this could happen yeah and and you guys have the dash FL with like all all the reporting on the user and Loan level on where the ltvs are so you know exactly what's going to happen and can almost anticipate these scenarios happening exactly I guess like where do you guys see Financial Services on bitcoin going in the future uh I know bitcoin's less than two decades old so we're still a bit early but um where do you see this going over the next five 10 and ultimately longer time frames yeah I think we're still in the early Innings right like today you can borrow against your Bitcoin at some at some Avenues but very restrictedly you can get yield against it uh there's not much more you can do there's like Structured Products that could be brought in here uh there's more safety um on the custody side we've seen a lot of hacks and such recently and that actually speaks well to your product where you have uh another layer of safety on on custody so client is really really um ensuring that their assets are safe and like um with this partnership at some point we'll get to that as well um on our loans with you guys so that's I think a very vanilla like obvious things that could happen there's probably a lot more you can think of here yeah I I think maybe one of the other interesting things that again is like even more nent than lending against Bitcoin is packaging up with other asset classes like I know people are looking at real estate and Bitcoin together and maybe lending against like a combination of both of them but still really early there um and I think a lot more to come over the coming years just as lending markets evolve here I say as also you know talking about early like this is this is the first announcement we will have with you guys and a partnership we intend to be longterm uh there'll be other products and services you know that way we roll out you know first you know I think soon you know we'll have the ability to to show you know loan details and deposit addresses cadle addresses in in the on-ramp app uh but eventually you know and it's been asked from our clients to put these loans on multi- institution custody um where the you know funds can uh get all the the benefits of you know having multiple custodians uh protecting that that those keys uh but that said you know you we we're both building towards that vision and uh you know looking forward to announcements there in the future of course I guess one of the things that a lot of people have been speaking about at least in the recent times it's just the repeal of Sab 121 and uh larger asset managers being able to hold Bitcoin on their balance sheet in a way that uh or on behalf of their customers um in a way that makes more sense for them um have you seen I guess any early interest on that side or any uh you mentioned a few large lenders that were now getting a little bit more interested in actually being the lender side liquidity on that so I guess kind of have two questions there which is one um how do you think that's going to work with banks uh holding Bitcoin and other digital assets on behalf of clients will it be sort of uh collat like reh hypothecated just like dollars at typical Banks do you think they're going to be a little bit more thoughtful with that and um will that drive additional Demand on the lender side for Bitcoin as well yeah I think um like banks have also had the the sort of benefit of learning from all that's um gone through in Prior cycles and so I would imagine that they are not reh hypothecating uh the collateral that's held it certainly is now easier for them to enter and and hold Bitcoin um but I think it's still too early to tell how they'll do it whether they just partner with existing custodians that are out there whether they look to build it in house um and you know that's just custody there's a whole variety of other Financial products on top like when we think about lending we've spoken to a fair amount of these institutions to figure out how do we partner together to power these types of products for their end customers um and so I think one there are like layers to the Bitcoin Financial products custody is like the earliest one and the first one that makes sense to start with but even then it's unclear whether there's going to be a partnership or these banks will look to build it all in house and like we talked about this a few weeks ago like the RIS teams at Banks you know are extremely conserv they're extremely conservative and you know to go build something in house for an asset that you know if you you know don't have the right procedures to to go secure can can quite frankly just disappear they haven't been used to dealing with something like that so for them to get comfortable with custody with lending like this is it's a new sort of ballpark for them to to explore and get comfortable with and I like I think with SE 2121 getting repealed everyone expects the banks to you know go jump into the space day one that it's it's not going to happen it's but you know it's interesting working with a firm like you guys where you know to provide the liquidity uh to an existing solution where you guys have the Reps you guys have proven this model out and you know it is bulletproof from a you know bankruptcy remoteness scenario it's you know it's a good story to to explain to you know those large pools of liquidity that that they have and you provide you know additional yield for their clients or you know um different ways to to leverage that that capital for them it this is a potential way that they can you know plug into this you know the the the Bitcoin ecosystem digital asset ecosystem to you know to start to you know build products and services um and and leverage you know the potential that we have here yeah without revealing any names or too much here we we like we do announcement coming out in a few weeks which will add some more color to this and maybe mentions people getting involved as well wonderful um anywhere else you guys want to go with this uh any feedback from the Bitcoin investor week thus far I know we're still a few days into this but uh any key takeaways in terms of I think you guys have gone more than we have to be honest yeah I I think that the the takeaways is number one it's overwhelming seeing the the attendees for the conference how full the rooms are how full the sessions are um you know watching this conference grow has been been wonderful it was one day last year yeah and now we got we got the full week and you know it's you know the you go on bitcoin Twitter and you know everyone's panicked Doom and Gloom um you know price is falling you walk into these rooms and you know you're seeing large traditional Finance firms you're seeing you know industry stall worths and they're not concerned they're building and you know that's it's pretty enlightening you know from where the this asset class is going um that they're not they're not worried about the skyall and they're not worried about the you know the price situation now because they know what we're building towards how early this actually is and um you know as you know both a Bitcoin holder you know Bitcoin Builder it's yeah I think it's it's it's mostly up and to the right for um you know for this industry yeah um and one anecdote that maybe interesting maybe not we actually met much last year at Bitcoin investor day now it's investor week but like we met in that room and uh it's good to see that exactly a year later we're working together totally agree exactly yeah it's uh it's fascinating to see a bunch of big names there that you wouldn't have otherwise uh I think there's a mix of you know interest in the space some is very early and just personal and uh others are pretty large Financial firms that are trying to figure out how to do it thoughtfully um so great to see everybody kind of getting together and and learning a little bit more um but yeah as you mentioned there's almost no discussion of uh actual price there despite a little bit of a correction this week um and it's good to PE uh see people just kind of trying to create long-term products and services that other everybody can benefit from interesting there hasn't been much conversation outside of of just Bitcoin as a whole it's not been like let's focus on the entire digital asset ecosystem and obviously I'm not talking about the speakers I'm just talking about the side conversations people are having at happy hours or different events and it's just been like focused on bitcoin and focused on like the growth of that one asset and it's almost I would say in some ways an asset class on its own it it has I'd say from an industry perspective from you know anything from when you're watching CNBC to you know listening to you know the the opinions of you know traditional Finance banking industry it I'd say the Bitcoin only ecosystem has been been screaming for the mountain tops that you know it's Bitcoin and it's everything else and you know I think that opinion is starting to come closer to the mainstream yeah I agree um I would say outside of Bitcoin though I think other tokens have a little bit less attention at the conference but um one thing that people are getting and continue to be excited about is just bringing stable coins onto Bitcoin just because of all the liquidity that's provided there I know uh more so on the institutional side that are just um super interested in being able to get the liquidity saw Bank of America's announcement recently and um sounds like Caitlyn long was teasing some announcement that's coming soon so we'll be interesting to see what other liquidity um can come into the space just helping Drive additional institutional interest in the space I we see with you guys have you know well I and I I've to be honest have been been surprised that the the default option for not default but you know commonly chose option for for sourcing these uh the getting the dollars back for these loans has been usdc and you know we're Bitcoin only product you know usdc is certainly you know I understand the use cases it's you know it's very easy to use it's quick um you know our our brand is Bitcoin only yet you know you we we've certainly you know the clients have chosen to you know to take that because they want the liquidity faster so um you know I certainly there's plenty of use cases for stable coins um but to actually to to see it in practice um has you know been fascinating to watch and you know looking forward to it being built on you know Bitcoin rails one day I know there's a number of projects and a number of announcements that that that could be coming out there um I think you get resiliency speed obviously is you the the issue there and you know it's a hurdle to to get over but um you know it's uh speed and and the fee Market too but um you know I I'd say it's been interesting and and seeing the Delight on clients for how quickly they can Source those loans yeah agreed um all right any final thoughts um does any anywhere you guys want to send anybody who's potentially interested in in our onramp yeah um i' say if you're interested in the partnership um reach out to reach out to onramp um you know via our website um you can you message us you can just call schedule a consultation uh we can walk you through um you know the the offering and you know what we uh combined efforts uh can can offer our clients that you know we talked about here we can get into more details yeah likewise you can find us at Arch lending.com um similarly you can book a call uh message us via our websites we're also on Twitter LinkedIn himash and I are personally available on all those platforms as well um yeah yeah and then um we have a very simple link with onramp aan.com onramp sign up from there it's very easy we'll know your nonr customer even if you don't and you sign up normally you tell us you're nonr customer we'll make sure you attribute it as such you'll get the benefit of both ours and on RS customer service and look this is a very uh early um it's a very early inning in a very long-term partnership for us a very long-term um industry credit as a function of this asset class is still very very small and it's going to grow significantly over the coming years so if you're here today and you're already using this or you plan to you're joining something which is very useful very early and you're getting a very significant benefit and if you're thinking about it come ask us questions come speak to Mitch and his team come speak to us and and we'll make sure to answer everything um to the best of our abilities um and then some yeah to that point um there have been a bunch of companies that have come and gone and I really like how long-term approach both Arch and on-ramp are and uh building these types of products in resilient ways so um wonderful and that's great to hear yeah it's you know at the end of the day it's our client's money and you know if you don't have that long-term Vision um you don't belong in the space so uh you know the both from long-term Vision to the the white glove Services uh you know I think both firms are are going to be here for the Long Haul and uh have the right mindset thank you for having us Liam wonderful thanks for coming apprciate it thanks for listening to this week's episode of the show if you found the information valuable please share the episode with a friend or leave a rating on your favorite podcast app all the links we discussed in today's show will be in the show notes inside your podcast app before we finish a quick reminder that onr media is for informational and entertainment purposes only and nothing should be construed as investment or legal advice regardless of where you are on your Bitcoin Journey we'd love to hear from you visit onr bitcoin.com cont to schedule a consultation with one of our Private Client advisers