Meme Meets Macro: GameStop Eyes a Bitcoin Treasury Strategy

Jackson Mikalic (00:04.288) It's time for the last trade. Michael, Brian, and Tim. Tim, every week you're just upgrading the background. We got Tim Cotsman on the podcast and he's out yachting but was still kind enough to make time for the three of us to have him on the show. Brian Cubellis (00:06.544) We're back. Tim Kotzman (00:17.71) you Tim Kotzman (00:22.51) Yeah, I don't know if I'm actually gonna get on a boat, but I am here in Fort Lauderdale for the mining disrupt conference, so I figured I'd spend the extra $10 for a marina room in here at the Hilton. Michael Tanguma (00:38.233) $10, that's a, I think Tim's exercising what they call pre-rich and he's been ultra long GME. And so now he's just actually on a yacht prepared for the bull market. That's about to ensue. Brian Cubellis (00:51.962) Yeah, kudos to Tim. I think you called it probably three, maybe four weeks ago when we were talking about next big corporate to adopt Bitcoin. And that was the big news from yesterday. GameStop updated their filings allowing for the purchase of Bitcoin for their Treasury Reserve. So pretty exciting. think it was like, you know, I almost would have been more surprised if they didn't do this. just given how much cash they're sitting on. And for context, as the sort of meme stock craze was occurring a few years ago, GameStop stock went crazy. They, very similar to what Sailor does, diluted their shareholders, issued a bunch more equity to raise cash, and they've just been sitting on about four and a half billion of cash, really just market wondering what they're going to do with that. Now, perhaps they're going to buy Bitcoin with it. Michael Tanguma (01:52.205) They also almost brought down the entire global financial system, that just goes, you know, kind of underscored. Jackson Mikalic (01:59.944) Tim, how does it feel, man? You called this on the last trade just a few weeks ago. You're a man of few words on this show, but you tend to deliver the most alpha of the four of us. So how does it feel? Tim Kotzman (02:05.761) you Tim Kotzman (02:11.31) You know, Bitcoin went from 109 down to 78. The lower it dips, the higher it rips. And I feel like although I was scheduled to be here anyways, this is a little bit of a reward for me, right? Getting to actually feel sunshine that's not like fake New York sunshine in March, right? It's like actual sunshine and palm trees. So I get almost 24 hours of this nice little reward. And then I'll be back in the office, nosed to the grindstone. Brian Cubellis (02:40.742) Very good. Jackson Mikalic (02:41.117) Love it. Yeah, one thing I thought was interesting to call out was, so Brian, you mentioned it's about $4.6 billion of cash that GME has, and at current prices, that's about $50,000, or sorry, 50,000 Bitcoin that they could accumulate. Of course, that's not how supply and demand works, but if it was that straightforward, they could get about 50,000 coins. The best parallel that I could find was in the summer, Germany had about 50,000 Bitcoin that they sold off, moving the price from about 70,000 to 48,000. What do we think the implications are of this GME announcement, the unanimous board approval for the Bitcoin treasury strategy? And A, what do we think about it? B, any guesses as to what percentage of that cash stockpile of the 4.6 billion may be used to accumulate Bitcoin? Michael Tanguma (03:39.053) My first thought is just, it just seems cheap. Like that 4.6 obviously couldn't get you exactly 50,000 Bitcoin, but you hear these numbers of billions getting thrown around everywhere. And to be able to buy 50,000 BTC for under $5 billion is pretty, seems like a very, it's just an interesting opportunity that I think we're not gonna see. Tim's been calling this in the... Ascension of bitcoins price over the next 12 to 24 months. I don't think people are gonna be able to accumulate 10,000 plus BTC for much longer without having, you know sizable slugs of USD having it enter the market Brian Cubellis (04:19.43) Yeah, Jackson, I don't know if you have that chart of like MSTR holdings and then like the second, third, fourth and fifth largest treasury balance sheets of Bitcoin. And there's obviously a massive gap between MSTR. And I think Marathon is second. But if GameStop were to fully deploy that 4.6 billion, they would, I think, be competing with Marathon. I don't know exactly how much Marathon has today. The other thing that stood out to me is just like scrolling Twitter yesterday and just hearing sort of the sentiment around it. There's obviously this, you know, people who don't understand Bitcoin supply and demand being like, how could this announcement not move the price? And it's like, well, it's a similar dynamic to the United States Strategic Bitcoin Reserve. like it shouldn't really move the price until they're actually affecting markets and buying Bitcoin. So this is just a an announcement of an intention to do so. So you wouldn't necessarily expect the price to be ripping immediately off the backs of that. The other thing to your question around like, you how much of the 4.6 billion to me, it's kind of like binary. Like if you're going to adopt this strategy, I don't see the merit in only doing a percentage of that 4.6 billion. Like what are you going to do with the rest of the cash? Like you would assume that doing this adopting this strategy benefits Bitcoin, its price appreciation. So like there's just opportunity cost with keeping any amount of that in cash if you're fully embracing this. Michael Tanguma (05:57.399) Hey Tim, I know you and the MSTR crew has been following the GameStop narrative for a while. What is the reason for that large slug of cash sitting on their balance sheet and how long has that been accumulating for? Tim Kotzman (06:12.92) So I don't have all the details. I think they raised some money, I want to say late last year, that really got it up to that eye-staggering amount. But yeah, I need to dive into those details. I would agree with Brian. I think it's binary. But then also, if you're going to be about what you're about, why wouldn't you just? T-WAP and V-WAP, right? Don't negotiate against yourself, but basically like buy the Bitcoin with the cash you have and then just start the same strategy as far as opening up an ATM and convertible debt and you know, so on and so forth to really lean into it. I mean, I don't know that we've had an announcement like this where... We don't know the details yet, but there's right strategy that they started with 250 million, not four, almost five billion. So I think this is just a really unique opportunity for them to really get a position to your point, Michael. Jackson Mikalic (07:21.523) Yeah, what I'm not prepared for is back in 2021. I don't know if you guys experienced this as well, but anytime Bitcoin came up in conversation, the person would be like, I don't own any Bitcoin, but I own GameStop. So now we're going back to everyone just thinking that these are just memes. It goes back to Trump and Nashville. We're just playing with our Bitcoin. Now we have to go entertain these conversations about GameStop. Albeit it is a totally different environment. So I think this is both exciting, but it's also I have cake on my face now because everyone's gonna be like, yeah, I own some GameStop. That's cool you work in the Bitcoin industry. Michael Tanguma (07:57.207) I think this is where it ends up, right? Like when you think about the action junkie oriented nature of a fast paced society, Twitter, reflexivity, like all the things that MSTR. has been known for and people are interested in, these other companies love it and they're gonna be able to raise capital on it, their stocks gonna appreciate, people are going to be trading tickers that are gonna be accumulating and in that similar fashion, I just, it mirrors, it sounds a little cynical but they're not really, if we look at some of these businesses that we know are zombie businesses. Adding Bitcoin to your point, Jackson, where people are gonna be trading around via Robinhood and the different Reddit groups on what's the next one to add and who has the higher reflexivity or ability to rise because it goes down to narratives, that's what's gonna happen, I think, in this next cycle. I don't see any other way where, if this is the trend of enterprises, publicly traded companies going, there's obviously gonna be the net positive, the Facebooks, Apples of the world, but then there's gonna be a lot of companies that come in. And it ties back to the lower base you're starting, higher, you know, where MetaPlanet was the number one performing equity globally last year. And I just think we end up in that place. It's just an interesting, I've always just been fascinated by the cyclicality of Bitcoin in every four years, there's something else that comes out that will propose that it's going to outperform Bitcoin and generally over a long enough time horizon, it never does. So I think it's just something to keep in mind because there's always something and people will either trade their Bitcoin, we see this now for the equities or they just won't buy the Bitcoin because they think the equities are going to outperform because it's an easier liquidity flow from the brokerage account or also the upside looks more and they missed out on Bitcoin. I think we're just going to see it. Michael Tanguma (09:44.463) again. Hope! Brian Cubellis (09:45.392) So, Michael, are you saying Bitcoin treasury companies are the new altcoins and therefore Bitcoin dominance should stay here or go higher? Michael Tanguma (09:55.286) no, I would go further than that. Say I think like Bitcoin treasury companies are the new way to take people's Bitcoin. Jackson Mikalic (10:04.635) I agree with that but that is an interesting point of topic because there's we're at a point now where there's more financial products that are being launched around Bitcoin to your point Michael people are looking for other ways to get exposure beyond holding the direct asset up for debate whether you should do that or not I think people naturally want to gravitate toward areas where they think they could generate alpha and have more outperformance even relative to something like Bitcoin which already generates a very impressive CAGR one thing that I think will be interesting to watch you did have the chart up earlier, no need to pull it up again, but it's just the Bitcoin treasury companies are predominantly now miners and exchanges, other Bitcoin crypto native companies. What I do think will be fascinating to watch, and you could watch this play out on Tim's podcast, Bitcoin Treasuries, is we'll just see other companies like GameStop. that don't have any sort of business within the Bitcoin crypto native space start to adopt these strategies. And I wonder at what point those dominoes actually start to fall and there's enough credibility there, there's enough publicly traded companies that have deployed the strategy where it does become... kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Like companies recognize the same way that we do as individuals that I have all this cash, I need to do something with it, or I have all this unproductive debt, I need to grow out of it. And Bitcoin's one of the few ways that companies can take advantage of that. So right now, it's still a very small ecosystem. There's the Bitwise product that is an ETF for Bitcoin treasury companies that I believe only holds about 22 companies in that ETF at the moment. And those are companies that hold more than a thousand Bitcoin and almost all of them. are in the industry right now, but I do think that we're getting to the point where public companies will start to increase exposure at a more rapid rate. What do you guys think about that? Brian Cubellis (11:54.16) Yeah, I still think, to your earlier point around the narrative and sentiment around GameStop, I think people lump it into just an unserious, sort of meme-driven thing, which historically, that's exactly what it was, right? During the crazy run-up a couple years ago, there was really nothing fundamental there other than an army of people on Reddit going along the stock against massive short interest. Now it is fundamentally different. If they go through this and they start buying Bitcoin, the price is going to run not because of just memetic factors. That will still be a factor, but it'll be because they're accumulating this pristine asset and fortifying their balance sheet. So I think that's the unlock for basically people understanding. what's going on is when you know whenever GameStop starts to implement this strategy and actually execute on it. The price will be running but for a very fundamentally different reason than it was the first time. And I think that will shed light on the strategy in general of Bitcoin as this reserve asset. But ultimately I think you we need like a meta to come out and buy Bitcoin for it to really spark that domino effect. And that's. Rumors of Metta thinking about it have been circulating for some time. It would make sense. mean, Zuck has enough control over the company to make that kind of decision. And he also has shown a proclivity for Bitcoin in the past. So that would be one to watch out for. Also, know, Dell with Michael Dell's sentiment towards Bitcoin being very positive, him personally owning Bitcoin. But I do think it'll take another one of those types of companies who like you're saying, Jackson is outside the industry, but not as like, unserious as a GameStop. It's in most people's minds. Jackson Mikalic (14:00.275) Yeah. I want to finally be taken seriously, Brian. I just don't know when that'll happen. One thing we glanced over, maybe I did it subconsciously, intentionally, but I did want to pull up the price chart real quick because as one does during the show, we just got to take a pulse check where we are in the market. I just can't believe I have to say it again, but we're still in the 80s. Brian Cubellis (14:03.844) You Jackson Mikalic (14:27.923) despite everything that's going on, but it's making me incredibly bullish. Tim's tie, we're gonna do a tie reveal later this episode for those that stick around, but the tie is indeed getting longer and the price is going to go higher here pretty soon. But I'm curious if there's been anything that you guys have been paying attention to in the past week as to why we're kind of flat. I guess the only thing that I've seen that I think has credibility is just continuing to monitor liquidity levels and the lag between global liquidity and Bitcoin and gold's price as well. But is there anything else that you want to go into more detail on that topic or anything else that would lead you to believe why we're still hovering in the mid 80s for yet another week of the last trade? Brian Cubellis (15:11.268) Yeah, I would say not much has changed sort of week over week of the past even month or two in the sense that I just think there's a ton of uncertainty in markets. I think it's kind of just wait and see mode for all assets at this point, given next week, you know, Trump's April 2nd liberation day where all of these tariffs may or may not go into effect. And then there may be retaliatory tariffs as well. So I think that's what most traditional markets and assets are reflecting that uncertainty right now being sort of flat to down generally. And of course Bitcoin getting lumped in to risk on assets in that respect. And then, the only other really major things are keep watching global liquidity and also gold's price, which we've talked about before. our friend Chris Kiper from Fidelity, if you want to pull up his tweet on that, he had a good chart and some commentary around the divergence that we're currently seeing and typically what happens is Bitcoin's price movements lag gold to a certain extent and gold is ripping, making new all-time highs every week basically. And so that's also reflective of what I just described of Bitcoin being lumped in. at least initially to risk assets which have been flattened down while sort of the traditional safe haven of gold has been ripping amid all of this uncertainty. And so I think it kind of all makes sense to me to a certain extent where we are, but it does feel extremely coiled and sort of like a calm before the storm in terms of one, just unlocking more certainty around tariffs and trade wars. I think that'll just having more certainty around what that looks like will generally be good for assets. then, yeah, just watching global liquidity and gold, I think is most important for Bitcoin sort of medium term. Jackson Mikalic (17:14.335) Yeah, one thing worth calling out as well is that we've barely touched all time highs in Bitcoin when you compare it to the price of gold. when Bitcoin peaked at 109,000, it was just about the same or in line with where we were relative to gold's price in 2021. So that, guess, explains why I feel so poor looking at Tim on the yacht right now. Michael Tanguma (17:14.52) Yeah, that's. Michael Tanguma (17:37.197) Yeah, inflation adjusted. We're right about where we were in 21. And I think what Brian said spot on, I think the one caveat, hopefully Jackson's right and it's up, but the counter to April 2nd, if the news isn't positive, we could see some volatility to the downside. I think everyone knows, you know, whether it's four weeks or 12 weeks, roughly that time period, there's going to be the volatility, but there's no... Brian Cubellis (17:53.382) for sure. Michael Tanguma (18:03.427) They have no choice but to inject liquidity at a certain point and that's when everything kind of rips. Jackson Mikalic (18:09.213) Yeah, there's this great chart. It's a fundamentals chart, let's say, but it's still worth bringing up as well. Team over at River put this one together. This is just a good one to do a quick, why are we having this conversation? And so for people who aren't on video, what we have pulled up here is just money devaluation versus official inflation. So since 2000, the consumer price inflation, the official metric from the government, trustworthy source, is up 88%. 38 % since 2000, but the monetary inflation, so the actual debasement of the dollar by measured the money supply is about 400%, it's 363 % increase since 2000. So that is always just a good place to anchor back to. The short term price, it doesn't matter all that much. Yes, I would like to look at 100k Bitcoin on the terminal, but we'll be able to do that soon enough. And so in the meantime, it's always good just to level set anchor back to why are we having this conversation, why is it important for individuals. It also accompanies now to be protecting their purchasing powers because in a little over two decades, call it two and a half decades, the money supply has grown by close to 400%. Like that's just an absurd number. And this isn't going to stop as well just because of the structural issues that exist within not only the United States but globally. these fiat currencies are debt-based, so naturally then, in order to pay back debt, you have to continue to increase the dollar supply. Michael Tanguma (19:45.325) Yeah, if you leave that up, only accelerates. think this, don't know the exact inputs that went into both, but it's irrefutable, the amount of inflation when you look at something like this. And it's something we've talked about for like two years since we've been doing this show is the feds speak about week over week, month over month, quarter over quarter, and the inflation rate that they say versus the things that everyone feels. And it's one of those things that goes back to like bonds being negative yielding and. you know, this mirage that everyone paints around inflation is only two, four or 5%. In reality, we've known for the past at least two to five years, it's been on the upper bound of like 10%, if not higher. And I think this ties into so one of the notions you just mentioned Jackson around the debt. It's a it's a random anecdote that came out today. I think it was Dollar General had bought Family Dollar for $8 billion in 2015. And they just sold it for $1 billion. Right, so $7 billion is gone. Somebody has to pay for that. Like that debt has to exist somewhere and somebody has to pay it back or eventually. that's, you know, when that deleveraging event, that cyclicality of capital has to come in to make sure that all of those like gaps in productivity of the debt being taken out or made whole or the whole system starts to collapse. Like that's everywhere you look. And that's where that ties to what you were saying, Jackson, about the, only accelerates from here. Like if you look at that chart, it naturally starts to like take off, specifically like 2020, I think was that like line of demarcation with amount of liquidity injected. You could see the house. Yeah, look at that. I mean, it's just like, it's insane. And it's funny because Parker has a really good presentation that will show very often people start at the financial crisis. And you'll see that like the financial crisis, you can't see it on this chart, like 0809. You can see a little blip, but it's not like as pronounced as 2020. But what's interesting is if you zoom out and start from 71 into 2008, you can see that liquidity like being injected and that's that the leverage being inserted into the market. And then ultimately the market had to delever and away and then you had to inject the liquidity. So more capital coming in just means more debt having to be more debt ends up being created. And then that's where you see the larger deleveraging events with more capital coming in, more capital coming in creates more debt. So. Michael Tanguma (22:08.845) Yeah, it's a pretty scary chart when you really think about it, for us having the global reserve currency and feeling it at this level. Imagine every other currency. Brian Cubellis (22:18.084) Yeah, it's a great point. Every other fiat is worse than this, which is wild to think about. The other sort of corollary to what we're talking about that I noticed over the past week was the announcement from DoorDash and Klarna doing buy now, pay later for basically like fast food, like burritos and pizzas. Like that is just an ultimate signal of like societal decay and stagnant wages and rampant inflation that someone would have to finance a meal, like a $10 meal, is completely insane and just a pretty stark reminder of these realities. Michael Tanguma (22:58.777) Yeah, there's an embedded insane part in that. It's like, there's one component of, I honestly think there is some people that don't have money that are doing that. What I think more people that are like leveraging the door dashes in these apps are the person that was sold a bill of goods to go to school and go get their degree and they're not going to be in debt. And they're going to be able to have the American dream and the house and the family and that all has like just been washed away. And so now they're just like nihilistic and they're very cynical and very unhappy and they think the world's owed to them. And so they're like, screw it, like, fuck it, let's ball, let's get the $200 worth of DoorDash and let's put it on Klarna, right? Because it's like, well, what else? You know, I'm already in the hole, like I don't care. And that's like, that's partial where the cynicism with Bitcoin and balance sheet stuff, because those individuals that are doing all of what we're talking about here are not gonna go and say, hey, OnRamp, I need to part some Bitcoin and build a store of value. And it's that those people are gonna go speculate because it's just the thing to do in this society. It ties into like Coinbase. and the acquisition of Ninja was it Ninja Monkey or Ninja Trader or whatever. It's like Coinbase acquired it or cracking. Jackson Mikalic (24:01.775) No, Kraken acquired Ninja Trader for 1.5 billion. I don't know what Ninja Trader is, so you can tell us. Michael Tanguma (24:08.629) Yeah, so Ninja Trader actually I need to make sure it's it's it's speculation at its core because Coinbase had also I don't think it came up. It's not fully through but they're looking at purchasing Daribit and they're both similar like derivatives trading machines for future traders for people that are just speculating on the market. Like it's this notion that the digital asset firms are gonna come into the equities market and provide all the different kind of casino games that they provide. And then the casino games like the traditional finance is gonna inject the digital asset markets and the speculation. And then ultimately you can see where it starts going because all the numbers are insane right now when it comes to gambling apps. So gambling apps are like the highest form of, you know, what just society starts to crumble. Everything is like going through the roof there and they're gonna naturally inject that. It'll probably be first in digital asset firms. Cause that's just like the easiest and most palatable, right? To put like betting on football on the same way as betting on like, you know, digital assets or whatever. But it's just this notion of like, you don't have to do any of that. You literally just park your. time and value into something that can be debased and then you just go back to your life and you don't have to turn into a trader, which effectively it feels like half of society is now having to do. Brian Cubellis (25:28.08) But it is tough and like I do have sympathy to some extent for what you're describing around financial nihilism, feeling trapped and like you're on this never ending cycle where you can't compete, you can't get ahead. That naturally creates high time preference, right? Because you can't be thinking 10 years into the future because you're literally just trying to survive to next week, next month. And if there's leverage that you could take on or some other degenerate type of gambling to try to get ahead, then that's where the mine goes, unfortunately. And so I totally agree with you. The logical, rational, long-term oriented play is to accumulate Bitcoin, even if it's $5 a week. But it's very hard for people to wrap their heads around that. when they're literally trying to survive. Jackson Mikalic (26:30.643) Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's just like, to your point, Brian. just continue to do what we're doing. Tim's doing one of the best jobs, I'd say, in the space and industry right now in terms of just broadening awareness, getting the message out there. But yeah, mean, at the end of the day, that's what it's all about. You're just trying to save, protect your purchasing power. Unfortunately, as much as I would like to think that maybe states and the US government will potentially use... the Bitcoin they eventually accumulate for the greater good of their constituents. It's not worth hanging your hat on that. But I just don't know how this all shakes out over the longer term because Bitcoin, like any asset, is going to be concentrated. I think in the U.S. I'm going to butcher the numbers, but it's generally like 90 % of the stock market's owned by about 10 % of the people. It may even be more concentrated than that. Bitcoin probably will end up with a similar concentration. It may not be necessarily that pronounced just because you can't create more bitcoin and use it to pad your own pockets, but just like anything else, there's gonna be a Pareto distribution of wealth, but the opportunity is right now where people can still buy cheap bitcoin, less than $100,000 per coin, and you can buy fractions of the coin. So I don't know what the answer is. It's so tough with something that is perceived to be so complex by the public. It really isn't. But it's always the challenge, in terms of getting this message out, where do you send one person to listen to a 10 minute podcast or read a five minute article to finally start getting it to click? Brian Cubellis (28:10.502) I just one thought on what you're describing around the longer term trajectory and potential concentration. I think the one caveat to point out is Bitcoin is an asset, it's capital, it's a commodity, but at the end of day, it is also money and therefore it is more likely to be distributed, i.e. stocks get concentrated into the top 10 % or whatever real estate does. Michael Tanguma (28:10.669) Yeah. Brian Cubellis (28:36.592) But people aren't like spending their stocks or paying people in stocks or equities for goods and services. Whereas in the future, like that will be the case for Bitcoin, i.e. it's more likely to distribute when people provide goods and services for Bitcoin in return. Michael Tanguma (28:54.819) Yeah, but I think what Jackson's saying is spot on. like life goes back to Pareto. It's like everything follows a Pareto distribution, whether it's like investing, company building. And the beauty of Bitcoin having that Pareto distribution is even though you can't create more Bitcoin, you can buy more with the amount of Bitcoin you have because productivity on a gross level goes up. So it doesn't really matter if it's Pareto distributor or not. It's just the fact that those units buy more. every day than less. The other thing that's just like interesting or what we're tying back to like denialism is ultimately the funny part about all this is the smart money for 15 years has done one thing and one thing only and they'd be looked at as dumb money from everyone else is just buy the asset and not do anything else. They performed outperformed everyone, everyone. So anybody that tells you to buy anything other than Bitcoin It's just not like the smart money. It's literally true. Like if you just parked the Bitcoin and that's where the custody comes into play because people just don't naturally, but once you find the asset, is, this is reason why this shows like the last trade. And I think everyone's still missing that. And part of people don't want to put their, like stick their necks out there because they don't know, they don't know how to store it. They don't know if it is, they have a book to sell. But when you go to any group, any hedge fund, any stock, over a long enough time horizon, nothing's outperforming the asset. And so I think that's ultimately what this all comes down to. And so the casinos can do what they do, but at the end of the day, their business model only has a long enough time horizon because at a certain point people recognize that. And then they're like, what are we doing here? It's why we focus solely on Bitcoin. It's why we focus on custody. And then how do you build financial products around there? Because this isn't for two years, five years, but this is like 10, 20, 30 years from now. This is how it all ends. And then you'll have an equity market. You'll have all these things, but there won't be this like embedded financialization of all these products. And the reality is the smart money's figure that out. That's why 70 % of the individuals hold all the Bitcoin is they just buy it, they park it away and they just get to like do their thing. Jackson Mikalic (31:05.373) Yeah, the other opportunity, I think it was Brahmas said it last week just about the idea that the alpha is the information, there's an information asymmetry, but all the information is publicly available. One of the things I had down for this week that I think continues to be a signal, even though it's not fresh news, just how Cantor Fitzgerald is positioned at the firm and Howard Lutnick is US Commerce Secretary. Because I will, I'll, plant my flag every single week. It's all about self-interest and people's interests and there's nowhere better to look in my opinion right now. Maybe we could talk about the Trump family. We got some meta planet stuff to talk about there, but there's very few places to look better than how Cantor and Howard Lutnick have positioned the firm and are positioning the US. Because Cantor Fitzgerald has a $1 billion dollar MSTR position, maybe it's grown a little bit with the recent price appreciation. And when it was a billion dollars of MSTR, it was 40 % of the firm's equity value. And they also have a 5 % ownership stake in Tether, I think they invested $600 million or so. And then you have Lutnick, who is working on the strategic reserve side of things. And then with Scott Bessent as well on budget neutral accumulation strategies. And then also he's working on the sovereign wealth fund for the United States. So there's all these stars that are aligning that are incredibly bullish for those who are paying attention. And that's why I'm both pessimistic and optimistic because I'm pessimistic in the sense of what we just talked about the past five minutes or so. But I'm optimistic because all this information is available for people who are paying attention. And that's why I think Bitcoin is incredibly mispriced right now at $87,000 still. Michael Tanguma (32:53.239) Yeah, one last one. mean, there's probably plenty others, but it was interesting that the SEC chair nominee, Paul Atkins, I guess he's going to a hearing and had to disclose some of his equity positions in some of the digital asset firms. And I think in material positions and securitize Anchorage Digital among, I think it was five firms, but it just goes to underpin what Jackson was referencing in that. you know, the folks that are setting the stage for kind of like this new financial order, the integration of digital assets are all very long in their personal and family portfolios, the ecosystem. Brian Cubellis (33:30.49) Yeah, I don't know if you guys caught the all in interviews with Lutnick and Bascent from last week. Definitely worth watching. think the all in pod has gone down in my rankings of must watch podcasts, but it was just Chamath and Friedberg at the White House and they had pretty extensive interviews with both Lutnick and Bascent and it was very hard to come away from watching those. being anything but optimistic about America and its future. And I think you're totally right, Jackson. is ultimately comes all back to incentives. And these guys are incentivized to have the Bitcoin and digital asset ecosystems flourish in this country and reshore a lot of the innovation that was really pushed out over the past several years due to regulatory uncertainty. And, you know, Going back to the budget neutral stuff, one thing we didn't mention last week in terms of the strategies was the Trump gold cards, the new visas that someone can just buy for $5 million. They've already sold 1,000 of them. So that's $5 billion just out of nowhere. And Lutnick has signaled, and I think he's just making this number up, but he says there's a wait list of 250,000 people. wanting to buy one of these, which would be over a trillion of dollars just out of nowhere. So just add it to the laundry list of budget neutral ways that Lutnick and Besant are going to figure out how to buy Bitcoin. Michael Tanguma (35:06.743) Yeah, Jackson, you, we could probably do a better job on this part of calling out podcasts for others, because there's only limited time. And to say like the ones that are really high signal or an episode and that one, I think you'd really like the LUTNIC one. I'm halfway through, but I've heard the Bicent is really good. And then the Apollo, I can't pronounce his last name, so I won't try, but from Tether and Matt Walsh from Castle Island was really good, just seeing the global landscape of how the treasury market and stables will play together. Jackson Mikalic (35:40.315) Yeah, I agree. I think one thing that would be... excellent to see from the US would be if there is going to be like a material accumulation of the asset, almost like, I'm not a proponent of UBI, I'll probably catch some flack for saying this, but accumulating Bitcoin and then figuring out a way to distribute Bitcoin to people within the country. Because... Michael Tanguma (36:06.905) Yeah, you're probably going to get it be a big proponent. mean, get a lot of slack for that because you're basically saying you want the government to take our Bitcoin and give it to you. How would the government, how would the government buy the Bitcoin? It's our money. It's our, but it's our money. Jackson Mikalic (36:13.681) No, I'm not saying that. No, not at all. It actually, well, not for me. I'm not selling it. Well, it ties back to the idea that most people, like, I'm tired of people saying that, well, we don't want the U.S. to buy any Bitcoin because it's not for the government, it's for the people. And we fly around with seed phrases in our heads and we don't trust anyone or anything and we just transact with each other from our brains. But the reality is most people It goes back to what we were talking about 15 minutes ago. Most people still have not bought Bitcoin. They probably won't figure it out for a while until it's extremely easy to do so. And the government could use budget neutral way to acquire Bitcoin and figure out a way to better the financial situation of people within the country. It doesn't mean it has to be like exactly what I said, but there's an opportunity there for sure. Michael Tanguma (37:03.617) I... Yeah. I think going back to the Lutnick pod Jackson, like the first 60 minutes, he does a very good job of articulating in layman terms how he plans to do what you're describing, but in a structural way, not because you can give anybody money. It doesn't actually help them. You have to actually structurally change a society to not only build and make productive things, but then also incentivize them to bring it. the productive things here to hire like, and that has to do with. the economy. It's just a notion of it's a good like it's a good thought but the reality is like we've seen this with welfare and other things like it doesn't people don't it's on the margins that somebody it does support them and there's other ways that they can get that capital but just throwing out money or Bitcoin to people doesn't really change like the dynamic of productivity and getting them to produce things. Jackson Mikalic (38:03.581) Yeah, no, I hear you. I agree. But anyways. Michael Tanguma (38:07.661) Jackson, you heard it here first, if they're going to give away Bitcoin, Jackson's first to position and send his Bitcoin to the government to give out. This is like Jackson communism, like first step is like, not my Bitcoin. It's like there's only 21 million Jackson, somebody has to give them up to give them back. Brian Cubellis (38:11.764) Ha Jackson Mikalic (38:12.797) Hahaha Brian Cubellis (38:19.298) This is surprising take from Jackson. Jackson Mikalic (38:25.631) Yeah, but it doesn't need to be the individuals who have 70 % of it right now. Listen, the US is gonna buy Bitcoin regardless of what we talk about here. So they could either do good with it, and Michael, to your point, just giving out Bitcoin doesn't actually solve many problems, but maybe there's a way to do good with it, or there's ways to do bad with it. So all I'm saying is hopefully, and I don't hang my hat on it because the government has a very poor track record of doing the right thing, but maybe there's an opportunity to do some good with Bitcoin that's accumulated. Michael Tanguma (39:00.003) I think what's gonna be interesting in that, in just the overarching scenario of how long people can hold, because there's this notion in like the Bitcoin circles of, you know, gotta out, like don't sell your Bitcoin to the government because you're ultimately gonna have to buy it back higher, because people see the price running and we know how much liquidity exists. We talk about corporate adoption, sovereign adoption. Like when this thing rips, we know where it heads and probably doesn't come back. And the corollary is the Swiss franc. And it's like my understanding that they're able to like, the Swiss will either create, they'll create money to buy like US equities, like so they print their money to do this already, right? And it's this notion of the government printing its money to buy your Bitcoin, like don't sell your Bitcoin at 150K to the US government because it's gonna be 750. And there's gonna be this like nice balance of low time preference and how long you can out. outlasted and then people are just gonna like give up their Bitcoin and it's gonna be millions of dollars. Just an interesting thing to be prepared for. Jackson Mikalic (40:00.541) Yeah, you're either going to sell it or there's three things. You're either not going to sell it. You could hold on to it and find other ways to get liquidity. You could borrow against it, right? That's the same option. Or you sell it to the government or you sell it to Michael Saylor. Tim, let's talk about Michael Saylor. I think MicroStrategy or Strategy, should I say, added 7,000 Bitcoin to the treasury recently. So they just surpassed a half a million Bitcoin on the balance sheet. Now Michael, know that's very upsetting to you, but there are people who are ex- Brian Cubellis (40:36.07) Is Michael Saylor bad for Bitcoin? I've been hearing this take. Jackson Mikalic (40:40.799) I don't know. I don't think so. Brian Cubellis (40:43.832) I don't think so either. I'm saying it in jest, but that take does exist that for whatever reason, sale or having this much Bitcoin is somehow bad for Bitcoin. Jackson Mikalic (40:54.495) Well, yeah, Tim, what do you think? So they own over 500,000 Bitcoin now. I think the next largest corporate balance sheet is Marathon, which is about a tenth of Strategies' balance sheet. So that's about 46,000 Bitcoin. And the strategy accumulation of Bitcoin is pretty much on par or thereabouts with all the ETFs that have accumulated Bitcoin in the past year. What are your general thoughts on most recent accumulation and let's hear some moon juice from Tim Kotsman. Tim Kotzman (41:31.722) So I don't know why you want to talk about sailor when we can talk about sailing, right? Let's just go sailing. Enjoy the weather a little bit, Jackson. You got to, you know, enjoy the sunshine. But in all seriousness, go ahead, Mike. Michael Tanguma (41:42.307) Tim, Timmy, is that a tie like neon orange or is it just the way the colors come in? Like is that Miami tie orange or? Tim Kotzman (41:51.628) this is Miami orange. This is bright as this is the brightest orange I have to date. I have more ties I'm going to order, but yeah. Michael Tanguma (41:57.421) Yeah, I could... It's impressive. Tim Kotzman (42:03.022) Yeah, it's not the Hermes. I don't have an Hermes. I like the chatter online. They're like, yeah, Saylor's Hermes tie is very nice for $270, but I'm not going to spend that kind of money on a tie. But Saylor did like my post when I posted the Amazon option. It's $2.50, and it's a very nice orange tie, probably very similar to this one. So everyone could go get an orange tie. Or, and I know we'll get to this later, probably, Jackson, the deal. Brian Cubellis (42:30.667) Should the government distribute orange ties to the populace? Tim Kotzman (42:33.334) well or I wouldn't be shocked if before the end of this Japan starts distributing the orange meta planet hats Right that seems to be catching on quite a bit with their conference, but I won't steal Jackson's thunder too much on that but yeah, I mean you think about the MSTR ATM that started and still is right they've sold shares so but it is a 21 billion dollar at the market facility amount right 21-21 plan so 21 billion in converts now you have this preferred and then preferred strife kind of I think F for me at least stands for fixed income and if they I think and I could be wrong I think if each one of those four ends up being 21 billion mean, you're at 84 billion worth of buying right there. And I don't think we're in a regulatory environment where anyone's going to stop anyone that has designs on figuring out how to get. And Samara has said that this himself, wants 1 % of the fixed income market. Well, 1 % seems like a low amount until you understand that that market's $300 trillion. So he just wants $3 trillion. from that market, but there are other markets. So yeah, that's why I'm bullish. And I probably didn't answer your question at all, but that's what I got. Jackson Mikalic (44:09.949) What's the timeline on that, Tim? Tim Kotzman (44:15.502) I mean the good news is Bitcoin's going up forever so you know I do think in the same way that Strategy has been probably one of the most transparent companies with what they're doing and now you can actually go to strategy.com and actually watch their Bitcoin stack increase in real time like live. Sailor tweeted that a few days ago. I think GameStop needs to do the same thing, right? They need to come out and say what their actual plan is. If they have a plan, they should have a plan, right? Are they going to buy $100 million tranches? Are they going to buy billion dollar tranches? What's the plan? Jackson Mikalic (44:58.675) Tim, yeah, speaking of Bitcoin treasuries, let's talk about Meta- MetaPlanet. I'm sure you probably have more to cover than I do. The one thing that caught my attention, especially because of the recent conversations we've had on this show and political interests, is that Eric Trump was added to the Strategic Board of Advisors at MetaPlanet. So that is another thing just for people paying attention to all the things happening behind the scenes in the Bitcoin space on Twitter, on podcasts, on LinkedIn, Reddit, wherever you get your information. We're in such a small little microcosm right now where we're picking up these little nuggets of information that will end up really benefiting us over the long term. But what else did you see come out of Japan in the past couple of days? I'm sure there's a lot more than just that little nugget of information I saw online. Tim Kotzman (45:51.96) Yeah, so on Eric Trump for a second, that kind of surprised me. I didn't see that coming. It shouldn't surprise me. But in the same way that you saw a picture. It's like the meme of like, my gosh, it was so obvious. It right in front of my eyes, right? You saw a picture, what, a month ago of Ryan Cohen with Sailor? And then I was told, and it was reported on CNBC as well, but I was told in private conversations that they didn't talk like at all. Like they literally just did not talk to each other. Whether that's true or not, like you look back at it now and you're like, like that was so obvious that that's at least what Ryan was probably trying to get, not just his board. but also the shareholders on board with because part of the reality is if you're the CEO and you make a decision and you kind of strong arm your board but your shareholders are not on board, I mean you could just be kind of out of there, right? Out of a job and then it's all for naught. So there's a lot of... communication and things like that. And to the meta planet side of things, I think what struck me the most about the images that came out of the shareholder conference is that there were 1,500 people at the shareholder conference in person in a conference room. And that for me, going flying to El Salvador, going to these conferences, that's what makes it real, because that's helpful as everything in the digital economy is. like that's really social proof for the people in Japan, for people around the world that like this is a real thing that's happening. When Sailor was at the Digital Asset Summit, which I did not attend in New York this past week, I was told that when Sailor got off stage, at least 50 % of the people that were trying to get a picture with him were Japanese. Tim Kotzman (47:52.268) which may not mean anything, it's New York, but I thought that was kind of like a weird thing to hear. So there are these like, not only can you just do things, but you can almost like beam things into existence and the more messaging and narrative, right, and to what you guys have been talking about, what we've been talking about this entire time, it's like at a certain point. once the tariff stuff runs its course, what's going to happen if inflation really is under 2 %? What's going to happen if it's really up only for some amount of time? It could be pretty breathtaking, especially if you have guys that are bad for Bitcoin, like Sailor out here, educating the world, working their fucking ass off. We might have to edit that. like these guys are probably no one's perfect, but some of the best people that we could have at the tip of the spear to communicate and be professional and really try to move all of this forward, not just for Bitcoin, but you see the digital assets framework that's been introduced as opposed to the White House. mean, these are things that could really get the capital markets heading in a very positive direction. Michael Tanguma (49:08.313) Tim, your yacht was taking off. It was honky and it saying, it was like, come on. Tim Kotzman (49:13.452) I gotta swim out to it. I gotta swim out to it. Michael Tanguma (49:15.991) No, that was a great take and recap, Tim. think there's two, they may sound contradictory, but I think the two things can be true in that, sailors good for Bitcoin and everything's actually good for Bitcoin and also not, let's believe sailor out of it, like, doesn't mean let's use X, Y, and Z, next corporation is good for Bitcoin. It doesn't mean you should buy the product. They're differentiated. They're different things like. Brian Cubellis (49:16.038) You Michael Tanguma (49:44.601) performance versus adoption. It's similar to like crypto. It's like people can say everything about crypto, but the end of the day, it's a lot of people's first touch point into digital assets and understanding there's value that can live natively on the internet. And then over time, it's like a funnel. And something that you shared, Tim, that I think is super important is at the most micro level of individuals adoption all the way to the corporate. It kind of works like as a fractal in the sense that everyone kind of gets tired of hearing from the family member as a crazy Bitcoin person explaining it. So you naturally need to pull in Uncle Tim. to come talk to the cousin or you gotta pull in the colleague, whatever it is. And it's very similar at the corporate level, right? Where, Saylor's already done this, he had to figure it out. And so now there's other advocates at levels at the corporation that want to move forward with a strategy, but they need somebody else to explain it to them or also just not be the lunatic screaming about number go up. So to that point, it is very good for. the understanding and adoption of the space. But I would just isolate that versus like just naturally like any asset or somebody doing that means you should buy their product because a lot of people align with Bitcoin just and it's always been known like hedge funds and people that will put Bitcoin in their portfolio and they very much underperform Bitcoin because they're doing all these crazy things. Brian Cubellis (51:02.31) Yeah, it's also like it kind of just takes one right. Like and it's interesting to see the corporate adoption play out in various jurisdictions like with MetaPlanet. I think I saw a tweet that our friend Dylan, who is another just great ambassador for Bitcoin, Dylan LeClair, he may have through his work with MetaPlanet may have gotten a meeting ultimately with Nintendo. So it's another, you know, probably the most well known. Japanese public company over the past like three decades I think it's hard to look at meta planet being the best-performing stock Last year and just ignore it like I think it's harder and harder to ignore So it kind of just takes one we're seeing that play out in the US and all these other jurisdictions are gonna see the same thing in their public markets and it just becomes harder and harder to ignore Jackson Mikalic (51:57.918) Wow. Imagine just playing your N64 and having some Bitcoin, some Sats being streamed to you in real time. That'd be pretty sweet. But yet, listen man, I think Michael Saylor should distribute MSTR shares to everyone in this country. But no, in all seriousness, I think we had some bullish takes. We haven't talked much about what's bearish out there. Brian Cubellis (52:08.496) Jackson just wants free sats. Ultimately. Jackson Mikalic (52:27.519) Maybe we did a little bit, potentially what happens first week of April, the tariff stuff, but that's like... Brian Cubellis (52:33.702) Should we talk stable coins? Everyone's launching a stable coin. It seems like every entity is launching their own stable coin. Jackson Mikalic (52:40.829) Yeah, I think we should talk about that, Brian. I actually wanted to announce that I'll be launching a stable coin. Yeah, what are your thoughts? I think what do we see? Fidelity, custodia, couple that come to mind. But yeah, you wanna talk about stables? Brian Cubellis (52:45.606) Jackson USD Brian Cubellis (52:54.384) Yeah. Brian Cubellis (52:57.83) I mean, I guess one of the interesting things that stands out to me is a lot of these stablecoin projects are building on what we would probably call unsound infrastructure, i.e. other blockchains outside of Bitcoin. And so I think the custodial one that was announced is being built on Ethereum, the one from Lava, is a launch as a Bitcoin lending platform, is building a stable coin on Solana. And so what that all signals to me is like the use case for stable coins and the people who need stable coins globally don't really care about decentralization or credible neutrality. They just want fast, cheap transactions and US dollar access. And so I think that is indicative of seeing like what, you know, we're Bitcoin native companies launching stable coins on other blockchains. I think it is just indicative of the actual use case of the thing. I.E. at the end of the day, there's always some centralizing factor with a stable coin because the underlying is centralized. So people don't really care about the rails as long as it's fast and cheap. Michael Tanguma (54:23.755) Yeah, think it's in it. Stables are really fascinating because like from an individual perspective, you know, it's public private key cryptography on claims on a dollar. Like how cool is that? It's just like, what are you, what are we talking about? But then at the corporate enterprise level, it actually is pretty interesting when you think about flow of funds capped from a, from a global capital markets perspective. If you're an enterprise, they need to move money. And then if you're a financial intermediary, and what does that mean? And I think there's something as like a second order derivative of like the faster that capital can come in, tying it to Bitcoin that's digitally native. We've seen Tether and Bitfinex and what that's looked like. So it's just, it's interesting. I just, I get stuck with like the security, securitization stuff, cause that's like the next order of this, right? Like once the stable infrastructure is in place, then you naturally can have a easier way to securitize assets and then move them around. but it feels like incrementalism versus like zero to one, right? Like incrementalism is just like a little bit faster, even though the US equity markets are the most liquid markets, you're gonna incrementally maybe make them a little bit more efficient, I don't know, versus like the zero to one nature of like what we're talking about here and what the things that we haven't even discussed that can be built when you think about collapsing and vertically integrating a financial institution around Bitcoin. But also again, everything being good for Bitcoin, these firms have to taste like some of these rails and figure out that infrastructure and figure out what their plans are before they're gonna go whole hog into whether it's adopting Bitcoin on a treasury strategy or actually how to build Bitcoin native products. So again, just goes back to it's further in adoption. It's just like, what are the actual innovations that are gonna really occur here? But it seems like from the Franklin Templeton's all way to the Fidelities, they love this stuff. It's like the cousin of blockchain basically. So. Brian Cubellis (56:21.04) Yeah, the way I've sort of perceived it for the past couple of years is it's like the broader crypto space outside of Bitcoin. You there's always a new narrative, whether it's NFTs, DeFi. There's always something new. And I think they've kind of landed on stable coins because there actually is some amount of product market fit as you're describing, even if it's marginal. And so in my mind, this hyper focus around building all these stable coins is sort of an admission of like the rest of it was bullshit because there wasn't actually anything of value like the zero to one innovations that you're referencing outside of digitizing dollars, which like, you know, again, it's marginal improvements. It helps the US. I think what the US is realizing is it helps them, you know, spread dollar dominance is really why the government is leading into it. But to me, it's just like this tacit admission of like, the rest of this stuff was kind of unnecessary and mostly, you know, driven around speculative gambling. The one use case that actually kind of makes sense is just like digitizing dollars. Michael Tanguma (57:34.615) I will say the one interesting part for the enterprises or institutions that wins the stable, because I think like stables are going to have multi, they're going to be multifaceted in the sense of providing yield. And right now they can't because of like the banking system and not passing yield and just whatever's going on there. But I think that'll ultimately change because in a free market, like that will become a competitive force to require. think what's my understanding of just traditional financial markets and capital accrual is you want to be closest to the money. So you wanna be closest to the base money in a digital asset world, that'd be like the Bitcoin and how do you custody it and then ultimately provide the financial products around it. Or you wanna be closest to like the dollars that are coming into the ecosystem or into your banking system. And so whoever can make the most interesting productive use of, want to create. and redeem these stables to get into other vehicles, I think is gonna have a dominant, I think that's like, they're probably one of the big drivers behind Fidelity and other coming in because imagine if somebody else, you're running your business on somebody else's rails and they make it more difficult versus you having that controlling mechanism and then the capital coming in because that US dollar has to come in, that treasury has to come in to be created, to create the stable. So I do think that's an interesting component where even more Bitcoin companies even potentially us, I don't know, I haven't thought deeply about it, but you may want to have, like Anchorage did a little bit of this, they have a consortium based stable with like five other digital asset firms. So it is something interesting to watch because it ultimately will help dictate the flow of capital, IE dollars into the space. Jackson Mikalic (59:18.387) Yeah, I don't really have any great takes on the subject. I just think... Yeah. Michael Tanguma (59:23.851) Everyone should get stabled. I mean, that's how they're going to do the UVI, by the way. That's like, they're just going to push. Brian Cubellis (59:25.19) You Right, yeah, they're not distributing stats. They're going to distribute shitty US dollars. Michael Tanguma (59:32.195) You're gonna Jackson Mikalic (59:33.216) I think the angle there, I forget if it was Mike or Brian who mentioned it, but it's about the fiscal situation for the government. And so if you guys remember in 2020, it was the SLR, the Supplementary Leverage Ratio, I believe, done away with, or cut to zero, I forget the exact terminology, but pretty much the... That's the ratio that dictates how many US Treasuries bills, et cetera, need to be held by these banks. And I do think that there's probably an angle here where the government obviously recognizes the need for stable coins for the debt demand, and these banks maybe will play a role in increasing demand for US dollar debt by issuing these tokens. So not a really exciting or interesting take, but I think that's a big part of the story. Michael Tanguma (01:00:26.627) If we're going a little bearish just for people's portfolios, we had the Telegram Ton Foundation raised over 400 million this past week in a token sale. I forgot, I didn't realize we were still doing Ton. They still did, I don't know, but it's just like an interesting narrative that they're still bringing up that that could be the most widely used digital asset because Tron, Telegram has the users, but again, we all know you don't need a token for that. Brian Cubellis (01:00:39.238) Maybe they already have a token? They just did a second one? Michael Tanguma (01:00:54.167) And then the other one that's probably a little bit more relevant for this conversation is the Trump media intention to partner with crypto.com, which has always been a very interesting one of those top five orgs along with the, you know, Trump, Justin sun and what he's involved with. There's always been like that top five in crypto that everyone knows doesn't feel right. And then eventually just like you lose your shirt being involved with them and they end up insolvent or part of some weird thing and crypto.com I think is hung out there for a while is one of those firms. So those are two. Michael Tanguma (01:01:32.249) And I guess, yeah, maybe if anybody's watching the other bearish, I think Tim will enjoy this, I don't know what's going on. haven't been on Twitter, but like whoever's creating these, you know, these new images of the last trade team, they just, they feel a little, a little bearish. I'm not sure, but you know, that seems bearish. Jackson Mikalic (01:01:32.542) Yeah. Brian Cubellis (01:01:44.742) We're cucked. We're cucked. Jackson Mikalic (01:01:46.93) Wow. Jackson Mikalic (01:01:52.159) Who made those? Jackson Mikalic (01:01:57.886) Wow. I love that. Brian Cubellis (01:01:59.62) Yeah, is OpenAI's new image and video model that just got released yesterday. so Twitter is flooded with different types of AI-generated memes. So that's where we are right now in the meme cycle is people are leveraging these tools to create a plethora of memes. But it is actually pretty powerful. I was playing around with it last night. Michael Tanguma (01:02:00.718) Ha Tim Kotzman (01:02:21.304) Cool. Brian Cubellis (01:02:29.734) Definitely the best AI image generator that I've used. I think it's like by far and away the best model that I've played around with on the image side. I haven't played as much with the video stuff, but from what I've seen, it's pretty remarkable. it honestly ties back to like the nihilism stuff, Michael, because it's like people are cooked, a lot of jobs are cooked, designers I think are gonna be in a tough place over the next. a few decades because a lot of stuff can just be done faster, cheaper, more efficiently with all these tools. And I think we're just scratching the surface of it too. We at OnRamp use a ton of AI tools for various aspects of what we do. I think we'll look back in a couple of years and what we're doing now will seem primitive relative to what we're going to be using in three years. Pretty fascinating stuff. Michael Tanguma (01:03:29.965) Yeah, Brian and Jackson have like three more months and then we're good. Brian Cubellis (01:03:32.996) You Tim Kotzman (01:03:34.158) I actually have a bullish take on the Whatever you just put up on the screen first of all I haven't seen any of them and so the bullish take is like can you send those to me because I can use them I can post them and help promote the show right as long as people as long as people like subscribe and comment they I mean Michael Tanguma (01:03:49.827) They got a- Brian Cubellis (01:03:51.942) I'm sending them to you right now, Tim. Michael Tanguma (01:03:54.221) It's pretty bullish, Tim, that they got two of three of them. Did not hallucinating, got the orange right, if you look. There's one, this one did a little red, so naturally probably don't wanna use that. But then this one got the orange, you know? Brian Cubellis (01:04:04.142) You Jackson Mikalic (01:04:04.691) Haha It's actually impressive too, like how accurate the paintings are in the background as well. That's incredible. Maybe... Brian Cubellis (01:04:12.42) Yeah, now it's wild. Tim Kotzman (01:04:13.358) Oh yeah. Yeah. So if you like what you're seeing, subscribe, comment, because otherwise Jackson just is gonna stop showing up. That's what I think. Jackson Mikalic (01:04:25.415) Well, you know, I don't even know if I need to actually show up anymore. If I could just like put a little image of me up there and then I can still do the audio I guess until I could just use one of those tools to replace the audio. But yeah, maybe not too much longer off to do this show, which would be great. No, come on man, you can smile. I'm just kidding. Don't be sad. Tim Kotzman (01:04:39.47) Hahaha Jackson Mikalic (01:04:48.573) Well, alright gentlemen, I think it was a good week. Tim, have a great time in Florida. Let us know how the conference goes, and we'll see you back next week, more likely than not, for The Last Trade. Tim Kotzman (01:04:56.014) you Michael Tanguma (01:05:02.553) Tim, do you wanna, before we wrap, do you wanna plug any of this stuff you're doing down there or that's coming up? I don't know how much you shared yet on the True North stuff, but what's going on with you and Treasuries and new podcasts, anything else? Tim Kotzman (01:05:16.908) Yeah, Bitcoin Treasuries podcast is business as usual. Some really pretty cool guests coming up. I have... joint episode I'm going to be recording with Greg King from their new Bmax product which is the first market that's he's going to be joined by Eric Weiss or Weiss I don't want to mispronounce his name it was obviously the guy that Orange Pilled Sailor so that should be an interesting episode just recorded one that'll come out early April with Dhruv from Arch so that would be really cool and Yeah, the rest were escaping me. yeah, so I have people that are like asking if they can record in person in June. Hey, I'm gonna be in New York in June, which is awesome. It's just surprising to me, right? You know, like, hey, check the studio availability for June. that's, that's, that's, that's bullish. That's very bullish. Brian Cubellis (01:06:15.738) You're a busy man. gotta get on the calendar, Tim. Tim Kotzman (01:06:22.178) Yeah, tonight's recording Wednesday afternoon. Tonight on True North, we're to be announcing a few things as far as additional parts of the Bitcoin Corporation's conference in Orlando. So I'll just say, if people can get down there Sunday night, the 4th of May, instead of Monday night, the 5th, and they're into MSTR and MSTR True North, that would be good idea. talk more about that on that last show. Michael Tanguma (01:06:53.165) Nice. Jackson Mikalic (01:06:54.737) Is it an Orange Tie Expo? Tim Kotzman (01:06:57.474) Yes, yeah, you gotta have some orange. I might be head to toe in orange with like the orange top hat and like just all the way down, so we'll see what happens. Jackson Mikalic (01:07:06.867) Michael hates to see us having fun, Tim. Just remember that. Tim Kotzman (01:07:10.926) Well, we'll see everyone except Michael next week. And Jackson, because Jackson's not going to show up. It's just going to be the Brian and Tim show, I think. Michael Tanguma (01:07:12.665) Haha Brian Cubellis (01:07:22.0) Bye, boys. Michael Tanguma (01:07:22.723) Good stuff. Have fun, Tim.