The Last Trade E068: The Millennial Monetary Migration with Bram Kanstein

Jackson Mikalic (00:01.679) Hey everyone, welcome back to The Last Trade. This week we have Brahm Kahnstein, Bitcoin for Millennials podcast among many other things and always joined by my co-host Jesse Myers and Michael Tanguma. Brahm, thanks for joining us. How are you today? Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (00:16.313) Yeah, I'm good guys. I'm excited to chat with you. think we've had several individual conversations, but this four way is something new. So I'm excited to see where this goes. Jackson Mikalic (00:27.768) Yeah, well thanks for making the time and I know we were just chatting beforehand. We first got connected maybe over a year ago, so it's been a lot of fun just to follow the growth that you've had and the success you've had with your podcast and appreciate you carving out an hour to speak with us today, especially since you're feeling under the weather. So we'll be mindful of your time and thanks again, Bram. We can get into it then. So maybe the best place to start just generally for those who don't know you, we'd love to just hear a little bit more about your professional background. It's quite fascinating. It's very impressive on the growth and marketing side. And then ultimately what led you into Bitcoin and starting your podcast. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (01:08.452) Yeah, so I was always just this geeky internet kid. I think, you know, like as a, as a millennial, like I grew up without the internet and then with the internet, of course. I was always like online and my mother would shout upstairs, like, you know, can you get off the internet? I need to call, you know, like, like that. later in life, I realized what I actually like to do. And what I still like to do is to just try out new stuff. Like I'm just. fascinated by kind of like the power of the internet and that when you create things on there, there's so many ways that it can travel to so many different people. But of course, I wasn't super aware of that when I was younger. for example, like I was always trying out like LimeWire or Kazaa or any of these file download like peer to peer. products and then, know, I would burn CDs, sell them in school and then we would host like parties from the revenue where people could also buy the CDs and I had a friend who would then play the songs and stuff like that. So I was kind of always into this. Yeah, just into, always say computer ring, like I like to computer and just do that. And later also combined that with, with business. And I think at one point when I was like, I don't know, 22 or something, I actually Only at that point discovered like what startups were like internet startups. And, you know, of course my first understanding was, okay, you have an idea, someone gives you money, you launch it and you know, magic, and then you're rich, you know, like, like, like the meme. But it was also at that moment that I realized, because I was like really down to like, what's his name again? Sean Parker rabbit rabbit hole. And I saw that like Napster at its peak had like 15 million users. And I was like, I was this geeky kid from the Netherlands in this little town. I was one of these 15 million people. And that made me realize that I'd like to be early. Like I like to try out new stuff that's launched on the internet, right? Like, and just know and try to understand what, why are people spending their precious time on, you know, this idea or this thing that they're building. So. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (03:20.09) always been into trying out new things. And eventually that also led me to, to the discovery of Bitcoin and like my professional career as, yeah, for the last 12 years, I'd say has really revolved around these new digital business ideas basically. And I've seen that from several angles. So my first job was at a big tech publication in Next Web. I worked for an investor. had my own marketing agency and just also tried a lot of my own ideas, filled out a lot, sold a few, but yeah, over time really specialized in, yeah, this zero to one phase. Like, okay, you have this idea, what's that worth? Why should you pay attention or spend more time, money and energy on this idea, right? Like that is the most important, I'd say. challenge or assignment that you have when you have a business idea. Because I believe, you know, the business ideas just float around in the universe, right? And from time to time you get struck with inspiration. But you see a lot of people that make like big plans and they lock themselves in for two years, they build something and then they're like, you know, now I'm here. And then there's all these crickets because they didn't really talk to customers. didn't challenge their assumptions, like all these things. And yeah, I just really focused on that and worked with a lot of companies on that. traditional finance companies spent four years in banking to like startups and scale ups. yeah, just through these internet journeys and this computering hobby, I also discovered Bitcoin in 2013. Yeah, I always say like I bought at 400, I sold everything at 4,000, I now have less than before, but you know, that's kind of the flow and the journey that everyone goes through. It is a pity though if I look back at my old tweets from 2013 I did that a few months ago I I tweet something like Bitcoin is a synthesized digital commodity and I'm like damn I got it but I didn't get it, you know So that's kind of how it went and I think maybe to add to that a fun thing is like one of the first Bitcoin that I bought was true Second life actually. So, you know, I'm in the Netherlands. We have a really good payment infrastructure Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (05:27.588) But I was a student, I had a credit card with, I don't know, probably like $700 type limit. And I wanted to buy Bitcoin, but it was really hard. But at one point I realized that Second Life had a currency. I don't know if you know that, but that was called the Linden Dollar, which was a currency that was used in the game. So if you would go in the game and walk to an ATM, you could use your credit card to get these Linden Dollars and then use them in the game. And why I wanted to get the Linden dollars is because I found out that you could trade them for another token or crypto coin at that time. And I could transfer that crypto token to another exchange, BTC E. I don't know if you remember that one's like a Chinese one, eventually went bust. And then I could transform it into or turn it into Bitcoin. I don't know how much I bought, but I think if I bought for like a hundred dollars, I ended up with like $50 in Bitcoin with all the fees and all the stuff. But yeah, I think it's a fun example of just, you know, trying stuff out. remember looking at you know, transaction pages, you know, and just having no clue what I was reading or, you know, what was going on. But yeah, that's kind of how it started. Jackson Mikalic (06:43.79) Yeah, that's that's fascinating. I mean, there's so many different threads to pull on. I know Michael has something to say, maybe business building related. One thing, Bram, that you stuck out to me was just the idea of the digital commodity and how you're able to come to that a decade ago. that. think that's almost that's extremely early, not only to be early to Bitcoin, which I think we would still agree that we are today, but the ability to take this information and this obscure Internet money a decade ago and be able to to pull those pieces together and actually come to that conclusion I think is very remarkable. And you must have gotten a lot further than other people. know it wasn't the, you didn't fully piece it together at that point, but you were able to pull it together enough to be early enough a decade ago, which I think is crazy. And then also just the idea of all these exchanges that have come and gone over the years. I was not familiar with BTCE, but it's not surprising just how those inefficiencies existed. in terms of tapping into the market and all the fees and whether those are fees on exchange but then also FX fees and the fact that they're not around today I think just as an anecdote that we hear time and time again over those past 10 years or 15 years total there's no shortage of those stories so it's really remarkable just to hear over the course of a decade how these different interactions you've had both Bitcoin crypto directly but then also just the early early years being kind of an internet pioneer in some sense as it relates to your personal interests and professional interest is very interesting. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (08:15.876) Well, I'd love to add to that full transparency, right? So I got it, but I didn't get it, right? And I also, of course, sold at a certain point where I was like, okay, that's great. Actually, you know, I really looked at it from this kind of like technology angle. think Jack Dorsey has talked about this a lot, right? Like, okay, the internet needs a currency. That's kind of how I looked at it from the beginning. So I really looked at it from a kind of like technological angles. So when I found Litecoin, I thought, this is the better Bitcoin. actually did a presentation at the bank that I later would work at where I did a Litecoin presentation and presented why Litecoin was the better Bitcoin. I have no clue what my arguments were at that time. But I think that that does show, you know, using one dimension to look at Bitcoin is not, it's not the right approach, you know, and I think that is actually what is this. what represents this flow of understanding and study and challenging yourself or asking you big questions. think Jesse talks about that a lot from like his perspective, right? Like how far do you have to zoom out, right? To understand why this thing should exist or why it's better than any alternative. And yeah, I think it's also nice to share, Like I got it, I didn't get it. I was not a maxi from the start. You know, did all the ICO stuff and all the NFT stuff to eventually get to the point, you know, yeah. Jesse Myers (Croesus) (09:49.016) Yeah. And that's what the altcoins just like rely on or they're based around is technologists being sort of hoodwinked into like, there's there's better technology, you know, and rather than and I think for you, Brahma and for me, like the the thing that we both needed to do eventually because I had my altcoin phase to. Was to zoom out enough to understand Bitcoin in this like much bigger context rather than like looking at the little details of transactions per second on chain, know, yada yada but that you're always gonna lose that battle if you know if you get into the the into the mud with pigs you You know, the pigs love it and you get dirty right like like that's that's what altcoins are kind of banking on you doing Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (10:35.193) Yeah, yeah. Well, and also it's when I went down the more like finance and economic dimensions of Bitcoin, that's where you find the reason for existence, right? Like I think the technological aspect is more about like, when you find the reason of existence, then you will ask why questions afterwards, okay, but why is this better? Why is this superior money? Michael (10:35.789) there. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (11:00.023) Why are there 21 million? Why is the supply capped? Why is that enforced? That's when you get to that part, because then you can explain why the technologies that are combined are combined in a good way, I want to say in a perfect way, to solve the problem that is the reason of existence. I've only seen that the last three years that I really understand that part. Right. So, you know, yeah, it takes a time. Michael (11:34.912) And that and that ties into our relationship with you you Brahman your podcast and working on it I think would love to hear how that started I think one thing that you mentioned that I think doesn't get talked about enough is it it's almost like a blessing that We didn't and majority people do not find Bitcoin early because when you really think about it, it's almost like winning the lottery And when people win the lottery, it's generally not a good thing because the money came too fast. You don't really understand what you said, A, the use case, why it exists, and then also the learning. people know generally whether somebody wins the lottery or gets inherent capital, it usually comes in as quick as it goes out because it's not a natural. And we've kind of seen this in Bitcoin historically. There's not a lot of people that got it in 2010, 11, and have built big businesses anywhere that we know about that also haven't kind of gone. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (12:14.521) Mm. Michael (12:26.435) little bit crazy, if not very crazy. And so there's this notion of, I think there's a sweet spot and obviously bias, but I feel like 17 to 25, maybe 17 to 20, 27, 20, 30, wherever it comes into is the monetization and how big this actually is. needed that time for the market to catch up and the realization of where does it fit in from an order of operations and an adoption to start to build things that can impact the world and also like, you know, make material difference in an individual's growth trajectory, the revenue, like all those things tying in and that like we haven't, we didn't see it. So imagine coming in at 2012, buying 5,000 Bitcoin, like you'd be in a very different spot. And so it's just an interesting dynamic where coming back around now you have that frame of reference of 10 years and you're a different person, but it allows you to do kind of maybe a lot more. be a lot more impactful to what's happening in this space. Your podcast obviously has a lot of viewers and listeners that are probably helping see this. So anyways, just a realization that paradoxical. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (13:29.401) Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's why I sold at 4,000. For me, that was a good point. But when you look back, that's the instant realization. had a similar realization before I sold because then I was trading and I suck at trading. I'm way too emotional to trade. Now I'm more rational, but then I was more emotional, say. So I had a certain amount, then I had less because I was a shit trader. And then I sold, I was happy. And when I finally wanted to get back in, I had less than what I had when I sold at 4,000. And I think, yeah, you have to do that to realize what the impact is of this absolute digital scarcity. Like now, if you sell now, I think we are all confused looking at the charts, like who's selling? I saw a nice hodl chart, by the way, like in the past few months, I think only 20 % of all Bitcoin moved. So it's just a very, it's a... It's a low supply that's actually been traded probably mostly by professional people. like, yeah, if you get in over your head when you think you get it, you you will get burned. If you get in with not enough, while you know, while you did do get it at that time, you know, you will also get burned in some way because you didn't trust yourself enough, right? So it's just, I love this part of, I don't know if it's the Bitcoin journey. I think it's a journey of adopting something new. Right? Like in the time of when the internet came up or mobile phones, et cetera. I mean, it's the same thing. Like the first mobile phone, you know, that you carried around like a briefcase, there was also like $5,000 or $10,000. Right? Like some people just tried that and then it broke or something, you know, and then like, so it's, it's always, and I think it's fun to tie that back to, to my introduction. It's you have to try it to, to, to have an opinion. Right. And that is. That has never been truer than with Bitcoin, I would say, because you are fighting against this crazy indoctrination and programming about money or the lack of programming, the lack of information about money. So this is a really, really, really big personal challenge for people, this adoption of Bitcoin and the study. Jesse Myers (Croesus) (15:42.926) Yeah. And I feel like that's probably I would I would guess it's probably the most common shared experience that people who got in in like 2017 or earlier and went through altcoins. If you then if you got to Bitcoin maximalism, that journey probably involved ending up with a lot less Bitcoin than you had or could have had. And that painful realization is part of understanding how precious Bitcoin is and that like, and you're not going to trade it anymore. You're not going to hot potato anything anymore. You're going to put it in cold storage and you're going to hold on because now you understand you learned the hard way. I would guess that's the majority of people who were alt coiners in 2017 who are now Bitcoin maximalists have that kind of 10 X loss that, know, and it hurts every time you think about it. But but it helped you get to Bitcoin maximalism. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (16:44.791) Yeah, yeah, I think that's true. Yeah. And maybe to answer also, Michael, what you just said that about the podcast, right? Like eventually you get invited by yourself, I think, to do something to contribute to this thing, right? Like you guys, you are building this company. think that also starts at a certain time, right? Like, like the pioneers from really the early days, there's a few left, but you know, if you look at technology, there's always this It's like a wave, right? And if you see it, but you're too early, you know, you, the wave will basically move away from you. Like it will go faster than, than how fast you can build your company. Right. And some people are right on the tip of the wave, you know, and then the waves, you know, slams and some companies die, but you want to be, if you want to jump on a technology wave, you have to kind of like do it at the right time. And it's really hard to, to think like where that is. But what I like with Bitcoin is that, yeah, it just invites you, right? Like if I don't think there's any Bitcoiners or like people that really got it and then went back to their old life or back to the old money, right? Like you see that people are moving their attention to this thing. I started a podcast, you guys are building this company, right? And I think that's all part of it. I think it's a signal that shows that, yeah, this is a serious thing. It's not the to the thing, it's not the Ponzi thing, it's a, people are moving their energy and intention and time towards this thing. And that's I think a big signal. Michael (18:20.067) Did you guys see... His name's escaping me from bull Bitcoin Francis's tweet last night this so good I don't know if you saw a gesture brim. There was a vice president's vice presidential debate rum last night and Yeah, this guy JD Vance and they showed a picture of him four years ago and he's like pudgy and kind of like It and then like the next picture is like last night looked really good, you know, like buttoned up hair in good shape, probably like 30 pounds lighter. And Francis was like, I know a Bitcoiner when I see, or somebody that's gone through realization, it's like four years ago, he read the Bitcoin standard and like just completely, yeah, it just ties into what you said. Like you can't go backwards in this. Once you see it, you can't unsee it and then it kind of impacts how you think professionally and personally. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (19:02.115) Yeah, it's all good. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (19:14.189) Have you guys ever had that with anything in your life? Like this? Jesse Myers (Croesus) (19:20.24) Never anything on this scale. That's for sure You know like and because because what does it mean to be like a technology adopter for anything else it it's it's a Shadow of what it means to adopt Bitcoin, you know adopting Bitcoin means making it your savings a savings pillar of your financial planning and Adopting I don't know adopting a Walkman player Jackson Mikalic (19:20.451) No. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (19:23.129) Hmm. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (19:35.106) Yes. Jesse Myers (Croesus) (19:49.091) means going to the store, dropping $50 and walking out with a little device. know, like any, any other technology is amounts to consumption, some sort of device or thing that you're trying out. And it doesn't really matter. It's if it doesn't work, if you don't like it, if you get rid of it, you're going to give it a shot because it's, not central to your life. So it's easy to try. And then Bitcoin is this totally other thing where it is a radical It's hot swapping out the foundation of your existence from a financial perspective while the plane is in flight. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (20:28.581) I would argue it's not only this financial, it starts with the financial part, right? But I think this is exactly why Bitcoin is, it's a technology, yes, but when you adopt it, it becomes your life philosophy, right? Like, it's not like, and I think he's fun, but like, you know, this MKBHD guy, like I'm the gadget guy, right? Like, I like to try out new gadgets or new cards. that's, that's fun, but it's, you know, that's why I liked your article, Jesse. Jesse Myers (Croesus) (20:41.838) Yeah. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (20:57.813) so much, right? Like, why doesn't the Yuppie elite understand Bitcoin? It's there's so many super smart analytical people that like to tinker around and do real research, you know, with Excel sheets and all that stuff. Like, this is the best TV or this is the best phone or this is the best whatever. But from what I've seen, a lot of these types of people, they don't like Bitcoin where so kind of my conclusion from that is like they are intelligent enough. But they don't challenge their thoughts, right? Or their beliefs. you need to be somewhat intelligent to understand Bitcoin. But it's not an IQ test. It is eventually some sort of ego test. Michael (21:34.552) Yep. Michael (21:40.619) It's just comments. Yeah, it's just common sense, but I think like to go back because if somebody you stumbled into what we're talking about right now. It would be like, these guys sound nuts. Like this sounds like a cult. Like, so I think it's worth re anchoring to like two fundamental things that exist. One is the reason why people don't get Bitcoin is because there are brains or it's the same reason why, like there's only a small cohort of venture capitalists that are really good at venture capital or seeing the future is that our brains are preconditioned to look at more of what exactly will be close to what exists today than the future. So when you take a radical thing like changing the money, it's just Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (21:51.406) Yes. Michael (22:18.213) you're just predisposed to seeing it. It's why we love this business because everybody's taking a grafting of like self custody and saying that's the end all be all. It's like, well, no, you're just taking what you initially have heard. You're not thinking from a first principle perspective of like, well, how does this go? The second part though is what you referenced about this change like past a fiat system. I've been talking about this book like Henry Ford's book. It's like, if you go back 100 years, everything we're talking about is pretty straightforward. They think about everybody else's nuts, right? So it's just like everything we're Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (22:46.221) Yes, yes, yes. Michael (22:48.203) was actually like baked in if you just get out of the water that is kind of like the fiat muck and it's because built into like businesses and it's built in how do we save and spend and consumerism but if you go backwards you're like yeah that makes complete sense that you just want a unit that money doesn't grow on trees so anyway it's just just trying to re-anchor to like Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (23:06.644) I love that. yeah, yeah. So if we take that broader, right, like, true Bitcoin or true getting Bitcoin, I realized that I'm not this emotional guy that, you know, I just said I was. I'm very fucking rational. Sorry, can I swear? Like, I'm a very rational guy. You know, like, I just ended up with this conclusion about Bitcoin because of a rational approach. Jesse Myers (Croesus) (23:21.998) Yeah. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (23:32.068) You and you just mentioned the word cult. think it's fun. Like I'm going to have an episode of the podcast in two weeks with a guy who emailed me because I talked about is Bitcoin a cult on the podcast. And he said, I survived five years in a, in in a, in a cult. And I can tell you Bitcoin is the entities of a cult. And I tweeted that and then people replied like, you need to talk to this guy. I talked to him, but it's so funny. And Thomas Trollite told me the same. This is a cult. Jesse Myers (Croesus) (23:51.46) Yeah. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (24:00.398) where everyone says, please think for yourself and don't listen to me. So I wanted to address that, but also what you said, yes, Bitcoin sounds too good to be true because exactly what Michael just said, it's such a rational, simplistic thing. And that's why it sounds so ridiculous in the world that we live in now. That's the only reason. That's what people in the cult would say, right? Jesse Myers (Croesus) (24:03.906) Yeah, there you go. Michael (24:22.733) Yeah, the world's crazy around us. It's not Bitcoin. Jackson Mikalic (24:26.288) That's what people in the cult would say, right? But I really think it's that. Jesse Myers (Croesus) (24:28.874) Hahaha. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (24:29.338) I really think it's that, right? Because the fiat money is so obfuscated, abstracted. I mean, I talked to guy on a podcast, Leon Vancombe, maybe you know him, he's really into real estate and Bitcoin. He's a master's of economics, okay? And he told me I never learned what money is in my entire study. So how should a normal person understand what money is? That is the paradigm that, yeah. Jesse Myers (Croesus) (24:42.601) yeah. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (24:58.935) we grew up in and that's why Bitcoin just sounds too good to be true. Jackson Mikalic (25:02.67) Yeah, it really is such a big idea and I forget who made the point earlier, but most people don't even... understand a tenth or a hundredth of how big of an idea Bitcoin is, right? Most people are stuck where you were, Brahm, in 2014 or where I was in 2017, 18, and even a little bit, maybe 2019, just trying to figure out what actually is important here. And I think it does tie into, A, how big of an idea it is, and Jesse's done great work in terms of looking at Bitcoin's full potential valuation and the idea that Bitcoin is not an investment, right? It's a savings technology. If you're looking at it. as an investment, then naturally you're just looking for a return on your capital. You're not actually looking for a better way to preserve your wealth or a better form of money that can let you transact globally and freely. You're merely looking for something where you could park euros in or dollars in and you can get a return on that capital, you know, a year or five, 10 years from now. But realistically, when people think about crypto, they're thinking about very short term trades, maybe algorithmic trading. So it is just the idea that we're talking about a better form of money that is fundamentally a savings technology and we're all using that and I think it does tie into Brahm what you're working on with the podcast Bitcoin for Millennials right because I'm really curious maybe it's obvious and it's because you are a millennial but why did you choose to focus on the millennial cohort and really what is what are you trying to drive at what is your mission of the podcast and does it tie into this idea of Bitcoin being a savings technology that we you know we all have easily accessible to us Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (26:41.401) Yeah, I'll create a bridge to get there because I wanted to share, know, like I only found these other dimensions of Bitcoin like this, the economical part and the financial part. I really got that three years ago, but in 2017, I worked at a big bank. I was 30. I had a mortgage. I was already in the Bitcoin. I was walking around in this big bank. You know, I always felt undercover with my little Bitcoin pin on my backpack. And then I talked to a colleague and at one point he told me, I don't know how it came about, but he said, like, did you know that the money in the bank is not yours? And I was like, what? Like, okay, how does that work? And then we had lunch for an hour and he told me, know, fractional reserve banking. And I remember walking away from that conversation being like, I'm an idiot. Like I work at a bank, you know, I have a mortgage, I'm participating in this system. I'm looking into this other system. but I don't even see this bigger picture. Like how do they compare? Like why do I participate in something that I don't understand? Right? Like remember, as I said before, like I like to tinker with stuff to understand how it works. And this was really just one conversation where I was, I don't want to say shattered, but really confronted with my own, yeah, inability basically. Right? And so I was participating. in something in not such a conscious way. Well, eventually, you know, I found this financial and economical angle more and more and I started studying it. But I wanted to share a tweet that I shared yesterday was from a screenshot from like a forum where someone said, you know, I lost interest, etc. And so I said, if you look at Bitcoin from just one perspective, as we talked about, right, like only tech or networks or money or economics, like you will not fully grasp it and eventually you lose interest. And that's why you really need to study, right? And someone replied, he said, you know, I spent countless hours at the internet intersection of economics, tech, etc. But then someone replied and said, monetary, spiritual health, wealth, religious time, psychological sovereignty, freedom, free speech, like, energy, abundance, investment, accounting. And I'm like, yeah, all these topics relate to Bitcoin. And that is, you know, eventually, it's very simplistic, but you need to study these things to grasp why the simplicity is so beautiful. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (29:02.41) And to get them to your question, I think that that's the bridge. Like when you are young and especially, you know, as millennials in a Western country, I think we grew up in the best time to ever grow up of anyone who ever lived. You know, housing, food, schooling, protection, all these things were all there. And When you would go to a store or you wanted like an ice cream or lollipop, whatever, you got some coins or a bill, right? You went there, you just gave this thing, you got the ice cream back. Okay, you know, apparently this is how it works. In my country is very technology forward. So very early internet, we have one of the best payment infrastructures in the world, right? Like everyone thinks it just works and it does work, but that is why you never question it. the people for who it really worked, like our parents or the boomer generation, like they sold us, not in a malicious way, right? But they sold us their story of how they built wealth, how they built their life, when they got married, when they got children, you know, how they went through school and got a job and like just the classic picture, right? But the reality shows us that that is not attainable for most millennials. And the millennials are now in the ages, right? So millennials, I think that starts at like 77, 78 till like 94. You know, we are in this age range of either starting families or having a young family. know, people are certain, you know, amount of years into their careers, et cetera. Like you're thinking about how do I build out my life? And yeah, in reality, it's just not possible in the way that was. told to you and for me, yeah, that was just a really big reason to tell people about Bitcoin because I think Bitcoin, had Keith Lascaux on and he said to me, Bitcoin is the S &P 500 for millennials. I thought, you know, that's good idea, a good term. And I also had an event where we had dinner and I sat across from a guy who said, I love your podcast. And you know what I think is brilliant? The name, like it shouldn't exist, Bitcoin for Millennials. I shouldn't be explaining Bitcoin. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (31:20.708) to millennials, it shouldn't be necessary. And when he said that, was like, damn, that's a good, I never thought about it like that. But it's that we really need it, right? It's a real life raft for millennials. That's kind of how I see it. Michael (31:32.771) But it's really noble that you're working on this and explaining it because we're all millennials and it's like you said, you kind of got sold a bill of goods and then we all know no matter where you're at, specifically Western countries like lack of marriage, lack of birth rates, home ownership, and you get all the tech like you reference, but the bill of goods we've ever sold is like. the meaning of life or happiness comes from things that are valued not from the fastness of trading or the bank job where you have the debt from school and then you go get the big house and the car. And so there's a proxy of Bitcoin saving from a capital perspective and you're not on the hamster wheel so you can have freedom to think and move. But then there's the other side of it is just thinking from a first principle perspective, what gives? Because once you have enough money then you're like, wait, that's not the thing that actually it provides how value and that's what so you got robbed on both sides before you don't have money you think money is the only thing that makes you happy and so you can't have kids and family then once you get money if it's not the real money then you're you're still unhappy because you're chasing some like things that are fleeting always and so on both sides people are just very unhappy and we kind of see it in society Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (32:27.552) Exactly. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (32:48.675) But think just this topic is so interesting. Our grandparents probably got married at 20 or 21 and they got their first kid, right? Just think about how that is now. who, now we think that's a mistake, right? If people do that, right? Just see how that changed in three generations, right? And, you know. Jesse Myers (Croesus) (33:05.794) Yeah, totally. And I think that comes back to like what you could afford on like an entry level salary, you know, in the 50s, 60s, you could start of a family and on one salary and buy a house. And, you know, that was totally viable and that allowed for family formation to happen in early 20s. Whereas now it's like, you just don't... As millennial, you just don't feel financially secure even now. Like, if it wasn't for Bitcoin, I wouldn't feel like I had my feet under me yet, you know? Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (33:43.717) 100%. Yeah. But how bad is that? Just think about that. You know, right? That is crazy. We are immensely privileged and lucky that we got here already. Jackson Mikalic (33:45.977) Yeah, I saw. Jesse Myers (Croesus) (33:47.574) It's insane. and an Yeah. Jackson Mikalic (33:56.559) Yeah, I saw a stat just earlier before we started recording that the income required to afford the average house in the United States in 2020 was about $50,000. It was $53,000. And in 2024, $121,000. So just to the point you're all making, I don't know me personally how, where I would be right now in terms of my hopes and aspirations for the future if it wasn't for Bitcoin because look at that seventy five thousand dollar increase in the price of homes in a matter of four years very very small percentage of people are making maybe even 10 % more than they made in 2020. So Bitcoin truly is, it's many things, but it does allow for us to level the playing field in some senses. And Brahm, I agree with the sentiment that you had growing up in the nineties was awesome, kind of living both in the analog and digital worlds. But unfortunately now with central banks and governments and just the centralization around the money, there's this continued incentive to really not allow for, I guess, a reset of the financial system, right? There's an incentive to continue to kick the can down the road. And what that means for anyone who's around our age in 30s and 40s is there needs to be another way to grow your wealth. And I don't think I really don't think unless you're phenomenal at finding the best demographics to purchase real estate or you're a fantastic equity researcher can find companies that are far undervalued in public markets. markets, whatever it may be, most people are going to continue to see their quality of life decrease year over year. And it's really just a sad thing. And I think that's, use Michael's word, it is a noble effort that you're on, Brom, just in terms of education. And ultimately you might have not even been here, right? If you in 2014 into 2017, you thought you figured it all out with altcoins and maybe you contributed your expertise and knowledge to build out other businesses or other podcasts that weren't Jackson Mikalic (36:05.666) focused on such a great idea and kind of a monetary revolution that is Bitcoin, right? So I guess it's all to say that this culmination, this journey that we've all been on has led us to this point now. And we're able to hopefully distill and share our learnings with the folks who listened today so that they can get a little bit further ahead at a faster rate than we were able to. Michael (36:27.489) It's not positive or happy statement I'm about to make, but I came to this conclusion, I think it's directionally right, that like, pre-2020, you could get really ahead by holding Bitcoin. Like, you could, you know, it was the fastest horse, all the things we know about it. I think post-2020, with the amount of money that's flowed into the system, it just keeps pace with inflation, like the real price. Maybe you get some like large moves, but you obviously like, kind of smooths out when you start to look at, you know, year over year, specifically things that you want when it comes to like real estate or anything that you wanna buy from a sizeable. Imagine buying $65,000 Bitcoin today and three years from now where that price kinda like nets out at and what's inflation. And we kinda see it today, right? Everybody's excited about all time highs, like inflation adjusted, I think we're still underneath where we were in 2021. So that just kind of puts the focus, even if it's not exact, it's directional of like, we're moving so far backwards and unless we adopt Bitcoin, you're basically just like out of the game when it comes to being able to stay alive. The other thing that's really fascinating, it's kind of like a meta concept of if Brom doesn't exist, Bitcoin doesn't exist. And what I mean by that is this sense of, it's obvious that Bitcoin can't exist without the internet, but let's pretend there was no actual podcast, videos, or content that existed on the internet. So you have just telecommunications protocol where you can send the Bitcoin, it's like we don't get to this point. Maybe we get to 100 bucks, whatever number, but it doesn't get to where it is, and it gets to where we're at way that like everything on the news now is very questionable where you see stuff on Twitter and you're like wait is this real and then now most people probably on this potter and their fringe is a conspiracy theorist for their family and I and I believe that's be true it's because the internet now just like allows you to get any information that wasn't that didn't exist before so these concepts about money and banking and all that they just didn't exist and now you like it's all there and so you have podcasts and you're synthesizing all of this information in the form of an hour Michael (38:29.217) and it lets you get up to speed that would have taken you 30 years to read a book that like Henry Ford had to figure out, now you can come to it. So it's just a fascinating idea that like the more the content gets better and more distilled, the faster this all happens. And even though you could have a landline to send Bitcoin through or whatever, you couldn't really get here until the internet was available and the concentration of the content like Jesse's writings and Michael Saylor's and all these things had to happen. And then we've seen it's gotten tighter over time. Because like 10 years ago was nowhere near, now it's it's excellent. You can give somebody probably a couple hours and then you probably at least give them a string to pull on to be interested. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (39:07.526) I think this is the explainer of why Bitcoin is an idea whose time has come. We talked about the reason of existence. That is why this is manifesting at this moment. People are more open to talking about money or questioning the money because it's really bad. Once you go into it, and I don't think you have to get into it that deeply. Some people can explain it in a very rational way. As you guys just shared, like they have to kick the can down the road. Debasement is a metametical fact, right? It is going to happen. It's not going to change. And I think the bigger team is kind of like centralization and decentralization, right? I think AI is going to do a lot there, but it's, yeah, this is how I also, I don't know if you want to go this way guys, but like more the spiritual or like the the even higher level part, right? Like if the pendulum swings one way to towards this centralization, you know, of control and power, and we are moving in this other way and people feel that, right? I do think we are guided by something that is bigger than us, not necessarily in like, okay, you have to do this and, you know, Bram does this and Jesse does this, et cetera. But it's the awareness of what is going on, how our lives are captured in a certain way, how you know, back to that millennial topic, how your future is basically stolen from you, right? One of my biggest inflection points was when I heard Saif Dean say, Saif Dean Amoos from the Bitcoin standard say like, everyone discounts the future, right? Because you don't know how much time you have. And then I thought, okay, that's true. But what if I do something now that gives me a certain monetary reward, and I want to save that towards the future to spend it on something else, whatever that is. whether it's in a month or a year or three years. And I think that was right around the time when I sold a startup. So I got some money and I was like, yeah, this is really it. Because if I'm not able to take what I have now towards the future, then it kind of discounts the future even more because I have this opportunity to move towards the future, build towards the future. But if I know that Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (41:32.013) the energy that I gathered right now at this moment will be worth less in that future, then why would I even do that? Because I already discount the future. then I am lucky that I found Bitcoin, so I'm protected in that way. But many people do not have that. And I think the saddest thing is I had a real life conversation, so I know people talk about not having kids and... all these things, but I had a real life conversation with someone who shared that he didn't want to have kids like my age. And I asked him like, okay, but what is like, why, why? And then just he shared, you know, he's pretty nihilistic about the world and you know, about the future, et cetera. And it really hit me. And I also asked him like, okay, but like, this is a with all due respect, but like, did you give up or like what, like, how, how do you get to this? Right. And I I understand that it's annoying when someone with kids talks to someone without kids, right? Because you don't understand, cetera. I really just wanted to know. And then he said, yeah, I do. Like it's just, that's why I don't want to have that have them. You know, I just take care of my girlfriend and my parents and I work and blah, blah, blah. And I really walked away from that conversation. I don't know, a bit shocked, right? Because I know as a parent that, you know, this is the only thing why we're here and, and, and does not revolve around money, right? Like you can raise a kid with all the love in the world. Jesse Myers (Croesus) (42:48.452) Mm-hmm. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (42:58.605) with some money or a lot of money, it's not about that. And I feel that once you kind of get touched in that thing, biological urge that everyone has, that we all share, if that gets corrupted, man, then we are very far away from what we are supposed to be doing, right? Jesse Myers (Croesus) (43:18.05) Yeah, perfectly said corrupted there. And I feel like it's at the heart of human psychology is the belief that we can make a better future for our children. Right. And that like drives everything in about how we operate, what we do, everything. And fiat money is inherently this philosophy of the future will be worse than today. Michael (43:42.435) Thank Jesse Myers (Croesus) (43:47.02) And that's incompatible with that. Yeah. And so it's like, we, and we've been forced into this world where you like, live within those constraints and then you end up with nihilism and people don't want to have kids or start families. But then Bitcoin presents this opportunity to just like switch back into a philosophy of the future will be better than today. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (43:47.523) so stupid. It's so fucking stupid. Sorry. It's so irrational. doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (44:05.613) Yes, exactly. Also for me and then for my children. Like it's, it, yeah. Michael (44:06.656) it brim. Michael (44:10.851) something you you nail or you hit on that I haven't talked about is a like we know the demographic changes and you know, lack of children or less children in marriage. But the thing that I was interesting, just like not particularly religious into any one particular religion, but just went back randomly. I don't know why, but started reading all these religious texts and you see all this stuff. Everybody knows like sacrifices and they sacrifice children, all this crazy stuff. you read it, you're like, this is insane. It makes zero sense. But at the time, if you think about it, it made complete sense. They had their reasons in the same way like we'll look back at here and there'll be different things that are that won't make any sense in a future state if this all plays out the way we believe that Bitcoin is sound money. Where I'm going with that is effectively what is described or your friend described is like the sacrificing of children. Like it's sacrificing yourself or not having a child. And like we see these things play out and manifest and we don't know necessarily why at the time, but that's effectively what's happening is that we're sacrificing children for money. That's what's happening is saying, because I remember going to the dentist and having a very like wealthy or somewhat from Western side wealthiness. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (45:15.587) Yeah, that's a good point. Michael (45:25.669) This is what I think really hit me was the dentist was telling she had two or three kids and she's like, I'm done and she's like we'd love more and he's just like well What do you what do you mean? You're done? It's like well because we can't afford it and so what do you mean can't afford it? And it's just like they're so literally like again It's not maybe it's not literally sacrificing children But they are sacrificing bringing in another human into this world because they do believe they believe that they won't get the extra door to ask the extra vacation the extra retirement and so again, it's not apples apples, but it's directionally what would probably have been thought of there is like this Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (45:53.273) Mm. Michael (45:55.729) is why I'm doing it that way. So yeah, it's really messed up and how we've gotten that far that it's just, to your point, just built in our DNA to reproduce and now it's like, it's okay, I'll just get the dog. I'll be all right. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (46:10.777) So crazy. mean, perhaps this is a nice bridge to, you know, another inflection point for me when I don't know if it was on Breedlove or Knuts van Holm, like they were talking about like Austrian, Kenyan economics. When someone said, you know, economics is not a science, it's a social study, right? It's how people communicate and interact with each other, how they define value, et cetera. On top of that, yes, you can calculate about like all these things, but in essence, it's like a social study. And the Keynesians, they create all these rules that eventually they are manipulating all the time because fundamentally it's all flawed, right? So to keep it alive ego-wise, they have to manipulate all the time. But by manipulating the rules of this, what would occur as natural marketplace of ideas, right? Ideas that people eventually spend their time on and, you know, build things or have a job. That's that natural occurrence, basically, that organic behavior is influenced by rules that are set by just a few, you know, a centralized group of people, basically, and people are following that. And so they are trying with rules on paper, they're trying to change this. I don't want to say biological behavior, but let's call it organic behavior, right? because it's such a bad idea, this permeates into everything, literally what we just talked about. The result of having such a bad money is that you're influencing the natural choices that everyone before you, before your life made, so you are here. And then you say, because your money sucks, well, this was it. Insane, really insane. Jesse Myers (Croesus) (47:58.776) Yeah, it does cross my mind with people who aren't going to have kids, especially for like the sort of political reasons of like, you know, global warming or whatever. The world's going to be a bad place. And so I don't want to bring kids into that world. And I can't help but think about the millions of generations going back that they, know, they are, their family tree goes back for millions of generations, you know, into chimpanzees. And they are breaking that continuity because they've been hoodwinked by the politics of our era. What a colossal tragedy that is for their family line. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (48:36.831) Imagine, I think about this a lot, like I'm really into like ancient civilizations and stuff like that. I think about this a lot, right? Let's say we are hunter gatherers and every day we are busy getting food and not trying to get the women killed by the animals, right? We are constantly aware of not dying, either food or protection, right? At one point, so these people are living, you know, the sun comes up, the sun goes down, the moon and the stars come, they look at the... sky like what the hell is going on here, right? And at one point it stops, the sun stops shining, know, it rains, the snow comes, the children die and they're like, huh, okay, well next year or they just continue. They don't know about years or time or whatever. Okay, we'll try again. And then it happens again, right? And then the sun comes up and goes out. And I feel like this is the biggest thing that we need to understand, you know, or what I think we all eventually want to understand. That's what I hope. think somewhere within us that is there, right? Like if you look at the sky and you zoom out, like Jesse can zoom out really well and just think about where we are in this tiny speck in infinity and you know, this, this what is going on, these extensional big, big questions. I kind of lost my train of thought, but I'll try to finish. This is, feel what we should be talking about, right? But instead there's all these distractions that go against all these, again, like organically, organic questions or quests or challenges that would come up for any human that we all share, right? And it's because the rules of a technology that we are using to, Seb Bunny told me this, express our... Jesse Myers (Croesus) (50:19.022) Yeah. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (50:30.625) express what we find important with each other, right? So what you buy shows what you kind of express something, right? Because these rules of this technology change all the time, it gets us further and further and further and further away from this natural questioning of or attempts of trying to understand what the hell is going on here, right? Jesse Myers (Croesus) (50:53.986) Yeah, I see what you're getting at. It's like, humans want to be and should be spending their time on self-actualization, like at the top of Maslow's pyramid. And because of Fiat and how it makes it harder to, you know, save and build financial security, it forces people to spend their time surviving in the middle of Maslow's pyramid and not being able to spend time self-actualizing at the top. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (51:01.944) Yes. Michael (51:19.372) in And that like to tie it in eloquently to Peter, Peter Tills quote is we were promised flying cars and spaceships or whatever. And all we got was 240 characters because that's effectively what we were supposed to continue to be progressing. And we've just kind of like stopped and we're just kind of hanging out. And it's kind of like going back to the cult positioning is everybody feels it here. It's like you kind of have a, you know, or in the matrix deal, it's like you kind of see through stuff after you get this because everything else is like, it's like I, Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (51:47.851) Mm-hmm. Michael (51:50.053) I can see what things for what they are and it just puts you at an advantage. Maybe not with, it's like the whole dinner conversation. Maybe it's not a great dinner, or not great dinner conversations, depending who you are, maybe just speaking for myself. But when you get to a group like this, you can just speak freely and you can actually talk about the ideas that will ultimately matter once we kind of are done trying to survive. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (52:12.599) Yeah, well, that's also the fun thing of the podcast is I talked to so many people and I hear these ideas, right? Like, so I talked with Seb Bunny who said, we are consumers because the value of our money is the highest in the present moment. One minute from now, it's already worth less, right? So in the present moment, what I just gathered, the economic energy that I have is worth the most. That's why I'm a consumer. That's why we are stuck in this physical consumerist world, we are not thinking about these higher planes. And I think, Michael, the matrix or I think the fiat money is the matrix. We are in this constructed paradigm. That's also why Bitcoin is too good to be true, because it's not in this paradigm. It's another thing. And people, is Jeff Booth talk, he says, you cannot look at the new paradigm from the existing paradigm. You cannot see that you are captured in this thing, because you are looking from the thing. Michael (53:11.063) And what's crazy, like to make that one really tangible is, you know, there's no shortage of really bad stuff happening right now, like with the floods in the southeast of the US and then Lebanon right now. There's like invasions. We have a colleague that his family's based there. And the longer end of it is that... It's like, why don't they leave? And it's like you were to your point about going backwards, like you don't leave your home because it's where all your value is. It's where everything. So the looters will come for it. It's like you just hold it and where all your wealth is stored. But it's this out of the out of the center in a different plane or paradigm. If you can just leave and you're not anchored to it, you always know that like that is your home, but you're not leaving everything. Your home is constructed of like your family and like your wealth and being able to take it and propagate it into the future and knowing that you can do that kind of changes dynamic. We've never had that before. At best you can trust another bank to do it and then you're hopefully, you know, they'll fulfill the obligations. But I think that's like a key thing that most people haven't woken up to yet is that you're not tied to a geographic location. If things get bad you can leave with all your money and you're not leaving everything behind. Jackson Mikalic (54:20.003) Yeah, it's so true. mean, even even for things that exist digitally native, like when we look at the numbers on our screen at our bank account, like Michael, you had shared at some point the I think it's Bank of America outages today, right? So even if you have money that in theory you should be able to access digitally or if I fly over to Europe, I should be able to use my credit card and purchase things there. But it's still a permission based system. And it's a system from, as you pointed out, that every day that I'm holding these dollars or euros or whatever. I have is a day that I have less of that tomorrow, right? It is a little hyperbolic to say that because it doesn't necessarily happen in the Western world the next day, but it does happen in other places within a matter of days or weeks. And fortunately, we're not quite there yet. I don't know if we will get there. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (54:59.555) Hmm. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (55:08.291) Well, in Lebanon, there were people that robbed banks to get their own money. And they have the same monetary system as we have, right? It's the same fiat money system. So there is no difference. We are just lucky that we are in these Western countries. You even more than me, right? Having the world reserve currency. maybe one more example, like you talked about the matrix, then you talked about the number in your banking app, right? Jackson Mikalic (55:13.145) Yeah. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (55:37.059) That's also such an interesting realization that I had that the number in your banking app is just a number in the database. And I've been to the data center of the bank that I worked at and they have like a twin data center, like two miles away or five miles away and they are connected with a wire. So the one is a copy of the other. That's basically where all the money is. It's just numbers in the database. There's nothing physical. There's nothing real. There's no save like Scrooge McDuck, right? There's nothing. Literally nothing. And you bet that the Russians or all the adversaries know where all these data centers are. Right. So if you sabotage one data center, the money that is not existing is really gone. Right. It's for me, that is this matrix thing. Like you look at this, at this banking app and you see this number, it's literally computer code that shows you here's the value. is what you, you know, yeah, value in your life. This is why you make certain decisions in your real. physical, biological life, this computer thingy right here. And yeah, I just find that so fascinating, so fascinating. Michael (56:43.277) It's an impressive veil and system that's been constructed because you think about it, you work your whole life and you create physical value. You put it into the digital database. Then you hope when you retire, it's gonna be there. I think of like, again, my brother-in-law, it's like enough dinner conversations and she became a spike coiner because she's like, can't like, if I retired and this all gets wiped away, at least I have, like he was maybe a little, it's just a hedge, which is at least something, but it's a... That's just basically what people believe. They worked their whole lives, they're gonna put it in the database and it's gonna always be there when they need it. And it's gonna retain its purchasing power, which is like the first part we already know is fleeting. The second part is for how long? Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (57:24.909) Yeah, that's why I say Scrooge McDuck, right? Like people think it's a bank like Scrooge McDuck has, you know, the coins in his vault there. that, yeah, it's just, that's not what it is, you know. Jackson Mikalic (57:37.667) Yeah, that could even be applied to equities or other securities held within a brokerage account as well. mean, we kind of assume that we can sell those securities and we can get fiat money out of the account fairly seamlessly. But there could be a world where there could be some sort of bail ends, right? Or the tax laws could change in the U.S. as it to retirement accounts and how you can access your funds. And then to Michael's point, physical land as well. Jurisdictions change their laws all the time. Tax rates could change. So there really is nothing like Bitcoin in the sense that you can truly, you can own it in a self-sovereign way and it actually is a global form of property that doesn't rely on you to ask permission. And that is true in the sense of self-custody. It's also true in the sense of what we do with multi-institution custody and just, guess, building solutions that ties back into the beginning of the conversation, just building solutions with the knowledge that we have and knowing that this is a technology that's only 15 years, you know, 15 years into its existence. know there's decades of cryptography and computer science to that predates that, but. We're only 15 years into this, so we're still figuring it out as we go. And we need to apply that same level of, I think, curiosity and open-mindedness that we have as it related to getting into Bitcoin, as it relates to building out solutions as well, and as it relates to education and bringing guests on your show, Brahm, and exploring maybe topics that are considered more, you know... at the cusp of I guess the Overton window or whatever it may be, right? So I think that just for me personally, and it sounds like for you guys as well, that Bitcoin opened up a curiosity that maybe was suppressed for a long time. And now you can use that to explore whatever it may be, whether it's with, you know, within Bitcoin money economics directly or it's technology philosophy, a lot of the themes that we touched on today. So I think that's just such a fascinating thing about what, you know, why we're all here today. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (59:36.055) Well, Bitcoin makes me feel again like that 13 year old kid that liked computering and was just on the internet all day in this endless journey of information. it is that feeling for me. Jackson Mikalic (59:51.695) Yeah. Well, Brahm, I know we're already over on time. So maybe just in the interest of you already being generous with it, is there anything, you know, top of mind that we didn't touch on today that maybe you just want to share with the folks, like anything related to the work you're doing with the podcast or anything else? And if not, we could always just do a handoff to where folks can find you, you know, appreciate your time either way. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (01:00:21.363) that's a good question. I I like that you guys also started this. think the one thing as a takeaway for us, but also for people listening who are getting into Bitcoin or who are already into Bitcoin, we should not stop talking about Bitcoin. I mean, we touched the philosophical part a little bit, but I really feel like by doing this, are manifesting this idea, right? Like, as I said in the beginning, I really believe that, you know, all information is already out there. All the ideas already float in the universe. And, you know, sometimes you get this idea for, let's say a business and it's something you want to pursue, right? I feel that Bitcoin and this absolute digital scarcity, it's an invention and a discovery, right? But everything that's created, like I just got this, I like the idea of this thing started as an idea in someone's head. It started as a metaphysical thing and now it's here. And I feel the same way about Bitcoin and feel the same way about education, talking about it, trying to, I don't want to say orange pill people, but challenge people on their thinking. Like, why do you do what you do? Why do you think this is money? Or whatever the questions are. We are doing a collective manifestation altogether. Everyone who thinks Bitcoin should exist, yes, it exists, but you know. in a way that we think would be meaningful for everyone in the world. And yeah, that I think is the core of what I'm trying to say is we should just never stop talking about Bitcoin. So I think it's really cool that you guys are building a company and building the, you know, out the content, et cetera. Like you never know who you're going to touch. That's something I really learned from the podcast. And yeah, I think that's just great. So I plot that. Michael (01:02:11.959) Yeah, that's very well said, excited to go on. I know Jesse's been on that's coming out soon with you and also to that sentiment of recently you've gotten most excited of like, there's a lot of Bitcoin stuff that will be built, needs to be built, but to your point, what happens when the best experts or professionals in their own right learn about Bitcoin and then start iterating and growing on their own? It's just such a fascinating idea and concept to think about. So the more individuals that come in, I used to joke around and say like the best companies haven't even been built in Bitcoin because the best founders don't even know about Bitcoin yet. Like they haven't even heard about it. They may have heard about it, but they don't understand what we're talking about. And so what happens when they come in, the Bezos's and the Zuckerberg's of the world, like we're really going to just see amazing things. So Brandon, this was a good kind of preview where I have a lot of things I'd love to chat with you and we record. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (01:02:48.985) I agree. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (01:03:04.853) Yeah, let's let's do that. I'll add one thing to that because this You know, you are also all internet kids, right? I feel bitcoin is a true internet thing, right? It's and and and we are we are acting the meme You know the the most entertaining outcome is the most likely right? I mean we are all tweeting at michael dell like just show us your bitcoin holding right? You're teasing you're doing I had a tweet that went viral that said like if michael dell If Michael Dell buys Bitcoin, I will buy an old Dell computer. I'll make it a node. All these people piled in, And then other people had an idea like, you should refurbish your old Dell stuff, Michael, and then just start making Dell nodes. Stuff like that, for me, is part of this manifestation. It's going to happen. I had another tweet that did really well where I said, Mark Zuckerberg buying Bitcoin will be the top of this cycle. Stuff like that. This is an internet thing. And I feel that we can really make this happen. There's nothing like this internet culture. So again, yeah. Michael (01:04:14.179) Well, here's on that note, here's how the orange man turned into orange coin. Like, you know, like Trump adopting or embracing Bitcoin is like part of what you just described is just such an insane like proposition. If you would have thought about years, two years ago, like it's just. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (01:04:31.853) Yeah. And he doesn't even have to understand it, right? Like he's launching this, you know, stupid coin, you know, that that is all noise. You know, if he signs, if, you know, and shout out to David Bailey, by the way, like he they are in his ear, they are in Trump's ear in a correct way, you know, and he's doing his own shit, to England's fine. let's say this, they're this strategic reserve bill. think the first attempt will probably fail, but it draws out people, right? It draws out people that have to create this opinion. And as we know, there are no informed critiques. So why are you against Bitcoin? Show me, give me your arguments. It's going to be fireworks, I think. Maybe second, third attempt. Let's say that really becomes a bill. Fascinating. Ultimate entertainment, don't you think? Like then we manifested this. 15 or then maybe 17 year old idea from an obscure internet forum into a law. Yeah? That's fun. Jesse Myers (Croesus) (01:05:32.496) It is a funny thought that most of the world will learn about Bitcoin by people trying to say why this bill is a bad idea, know, and people trying to figure out why to oppose a bill because it sounds crazy. That'll bring in a huge new cohort of people to understanding Bitcoin. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (01:05:50.297) I have people on Twitter yesterday, I had a discussion with a guy who was like super pro EU, blah, blah, like I'm pro EU trade, but not like how the European Union is now. And then he said, you have Bitcoin in your bio or you're sucker. And then I just quote tweeted a post from me where I calculated, you know, one Euro in 2000 is now 30 cents. Okay. And the Euro crashed 99.999 % against Bitcoin. said, good luck. And then there was just silence. And so this will, yeah, it will draw people out. It will draw people's arguments out and we will get the opportunity to counter these arguments. And I think that is the opportunity that we are eventually looking Jackson Mikalic (01:06:34.979) That's a great place to stop the show. Bram, thank you so much for coming on. I know we plugged Bitcoin for millennials, but is there anywhere else that you want to send people? Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (01:06:46.477) Yeah, people can just find Bitcoin for Millennials on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, Fountain, and they can find me on Xtwitter at bramk. Jackson Mikalic (01:06:58.209) Awesome. Thanks, Brum. Bram Kanstein (@bramk) (01:06:59.715) Thanks guys, enjoyed it.